[Adi Gibb]

Hey Spiritseeker,

You are right, there is a HUGE range, which is great but can be confusing. I guess I would fall more in the 'god' range (though I see God as the limitless divine and the ultimate mystery). But I think for a general position Marcus Borg often says he sees Jesus, and importantly the way jesus lived, as the 'fullest revelation of God'. I think, though I may be wrong, that most here would agree with that statement to at least some degree.

Adi

[JosephM]

Spirit Seeker,

I think one will find all the official position one will get for now by reading Point 1 and point 6 of the eight points. The answer would be yes, of course members can have different opinions on who Jesus was and what he means to you. PC supports the search, not dogmatic certainty or the accuracy of any single document at least here at TCPC.

Joseph

[spiritseeker]

JosephM, on 14 October 2009 - 10:26 PM, said:

Spirit Seeker,

I think one will find all the official position one will get for now by reading Point 1 and point 6 of the eight points. The answer would be yes, of course members can have different opinions on who Jesus was and what he means to you. PC supports the search, not dogmatic certainty or the accuracy of any single document at least here at TCPC.

Joseph

Thanks Joseph and Adi.

I will try and explain my thinking at the moment (which could be hard for anyone to understand!)
I feel compelled to figuring out what Jesus means to me. To do that I feel like I need to discover if I believe he has "special powers" and IS God or if I believe that he was one of Gods children like us all but he was a really good teacher and a great example to base my life on.

know to alot of people this isnt important but to me I just dont know how I can ever come up with an answer to this. I really feel like I have hit a brick wall because I do think that for me to have the kind of relationship I want with God then I have to make a decision on where Jesus fits in all of this.

I would love to hear everyone elses experiences and thoughts as I feel like I am slowly sinking at the moment. Spiritualy not literally ofcourse!

[Adi Gibb]

Hi Spiritseeker,

This is such a personal thing and will involve your own searching. May I recommend a book called The Meaning of Jesus, Two Versions, by Marcus Borg and N.T.Wright. You will see both perspectives laid out there and may give you some food for thought. My personal conviction is in a metaphysical Jesus, one with 'special powers', as you put it, as I believe that the limitless divine showed its face in Jesus, and also it's limitlessness, if that makes sense, to add power to the messages of Christ. But, again, such a personal take! Read, read and read again I would say! It is wonderful you are asking these questions, and right, and good, as this is how faith becomes strong. You aren't sinking mate, you are swimming towards a greater personal conviction and understanding!

Adi

[JosephM]

spiritseeker, on 15 October 2009 - 07:08 AM, said:

Thanks Joseph and Adi.

I will try and explain my thinking at the moment (which could be hard for anyone to understand!)
I feel compelled to figuring out what Jesus means to me. To do that I feel like I need to discover if I believe he has "special powers" and IS God or if I believe that he was one of Gods children like us all but he was a really good teacher and a great example to base my life on.

know to alot of people this isnt important but to me I just dont know how I can ever come up with an answer to this. I really feel like I have hit a brick wall because I do think that for me to have the kind of relationship I want with God then I have to make a decision on where Jesus fits in all of this.

I would love to hear everyone elses experiences and thoughts as I feel like I am slowly sinking at the moment. Spiritualy not literally ofcourse!

Okay spiritseeker I think I understand why you want to know. Perhaps not having a answer you do feel a bit disoriented. After all you are venturing into uncharted waters and even though there are others here to support you, the journey is one each must go on and experience for oneself alone.


This is only my view on the issue to be taken lightly. The mind itself to me seems to feed on answers which just opens up more questions. To me it is ever seeking and never finding rest. ie: Say for example you settle down to the belief that Jesus has "special powers" that you don't have. What do you now have? Just another belief or piece to the puzzle that may or may not be true and if it is an incorrect one than later the building will collapse again. What am I proposing? I am saying that perhaps there is no need to have a position either way. If you never met Jesus in person, or God has not given you personal revelation of the answer, then why even struggle for an answer that is just another mind concept not to any edification of the Spirit?

To me, I am satisfied allowing God to reveal things to me directly, through subjective experiences through the Spirit as I am ready to receive. In the meantime, why should I allow precepts of the minds of men to obscure that which is always available but hidden by opinions and positions of the mind so that subtle revelations are missed from my view. To me, all things are known and present as is the Sun. We are never without it but the clouds often obscure our view. These clouds, to me, are nothing more than preconditioned opinions, positions, false beliefs, man made concepts, self judgements, and an abundance of labels and self-definitions that serve only to veil that which has been with us always and is freely received by a simple, open and uncluttered mind.

In my view, you cannot sink for the One that has started your exploration shall and is surely able to finish it with your cooperation through this concept of time.

Love in Christ,
Joseph

[Jay Tee]

Point 1: Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus.

Point 2: Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty – more value in questioning than in absolutes.

I often heard that the value and meaning is in the journey more than the destination. Questioning to me is the journey, the means by which growth and depth can occur. Yet the destination, the answers, may only be milestones or stepping stones along the way, not yet the final answer. So, yes, questioning and seeking "what Jesus means to me, if he has special powers, etc." may have value in itself and be just what the doctor order.

Which leads to another thought: perhaps this is the moving of the Spirit or of God to start a particular journey to perhaps find a particular answer or perhaps to teach him a certain process of thinking or exploration.

The clouds may be ignorance which can be blown away by the winds of questioning and seeking.

So, my concluding thought? Seek, and ye shall find - maybe not the answer you are searching for, but perhaps some valuable treasure along the way, perhaps beside the rock you sit upon to reast, perhaps in the journey itself. And if you do find an answer, my thought is hold to it with conviction, but tentatively, prepared to revise or discard it should evidence or revelation gives reason to do so.

In essence, search but don't beat yourself up doing so, and don't stop searching, even if you think you have found an answer. More importantly, be open to God coming to you instead of you just coming to him.

(wow, I used as many words as others and have said about 1/10th of what they said. Gotta work on that - depth or brevity, preferrably both.)

This post has been edited by Jay Tee: 15 October 2009 - 11:54 PM

[spiritseeker]

JosephM, on 15 October 2009 - 11:32 PM, said:

Okay spiritseeker I think I understand why you want to know. Perhaps not having a answer you do feel a bit disoriented. After all you are venturing into uncharted waters and even though there are others here to support you, the journey is one each must go on and experience for oneself alone.


This is only my view on the issue to be taken lightly. The mind itself to me seems to feed on answers which just opens up more questions. To me it is ever seeking and never finding rest. ie: Say for example you settle down to the belief that Jesus has "special powers" that you don't have. What do you now have? Just another belief or piece to the puzzle that may or may not be true and if it is an incorrect one than later the building will collapse again. What am I proposing? I am saying that perhaps there is no need to have a position either way. If you never met Jesus in person, or God has not given you personal revelation of the answer, then why even struggle for an answer that is just another mind concept not to any edification of the Spirit?

I really do understand where you are coming from Joseph. I get frustrated with not getting answers and most the time I can continue on and study and just see where God takes me. I however cannot do that with Jesus. Inside I feel that Jesus is my connection to God and that truly feels great but it also gives me great pain because I need to figure out what I believe. As you said Joseph, I dont know if any answer will give me satisfaction or maybe it will just provide me with more questions. All I do know is that I am really hurting inside because I want a relationship with God and Jesus that I can be proud of. I dont feel like I can do that when I dont even know who Jesus is. I am scared that I will never find out because all I do is read and study but once again I always come back to realising that there is no concrete evidence that will satisfy me.

What I do know is that I am feeling like I have found a home here in TCPC and at this point in my journey I am really happy and honoured to be here with you all!

JosephM, on 15 October 2009 - 11:32 PM, said:

In my view, you cannot sink for the One that has started your exploration shall and is surely able to finish it with your cooperation through this concept of time.

That is really a beautiful message Joseph. Thank you so much for sharing it.

[spiritseeker]

Jay Tee, on 16 October 2009 - 02:51 PM, said:

Point 1: Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus.

Point 2: Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty – more value in questioning than in absolutes.

Hi Jay Tee. Thanks for discussing this with me as well. When I look at Point 1 my mind says " perfect I dont need to know who Jesus is exactly" but my heart doesn't accept that. My heart/spirit says " you need to know more to satisfy my thirst of who Jesus is."

Sometimes I feel like I have 2 voices. 1 will say "just put all your faith in Jesus. Love him, follow him and you cant go wrong." The other voice says "This is just too hard. You will never find any answers so just move on and live your life". I do know 100% that I would never give up on God as he means way too much to me and I do have the evidence that satisfies my spirit to believe in God. For example: The Universe, Nature, Creation, All of our emotions and most of all our spirituality.

Jay Tee, on 16 October 2009 - 02:51 PM, said:

So, my concluding thought? Seek, and ye shall find - maybe not the answer you are searching for, but perhaps some valuable treasure along the way, perhaps beside the rock you sit upon to reast, perhaps in the journey itself. And if you do find an answer, my thought is hold to it with conviction, but tentatively, prepared to revise or discard it should evidence or revelation gives reason to do so.

In essence, search but don't beat yourself up doing so, and don't stop searching, even if you think you have found an answer.

Some very wise words spoken there Jay Tee. I am very proud of you! As I said my spirit would never let me stop searching but I do want to find a rock to sit on and rest and just enjoy the wonders of life here on Earth!

Jay Tee, on 16 October 2009 - 02:51 PM, said:

More importantly, be open to God coming to you instead of you just coming to him.

WOW! This message has really hit me (in a good way). Maybe I am just trying way too hard and trying to force something that is unforcible. I think I have control issues and want to be in charge of everything and maybe if I do put some trust in God then a few doors may just open for me. Thanks mate!

[spiritseeker]

Adi Gibb, on 15 October 2009 - 10:24 PM, said:

Hi Spiritseeker,

This is such a personal thing and will involve your own searching. May I recommend a book called The Meaning of Jesus, Two Versions, by Marcus Borg and N.T.Wright. You will see both perspectives laid out there and may give you some food for thought. My personal conviction is in a metaphysical Jesus, one with 'special powers', as you put it, as I believe that the limitless divine showed its face in Jesus, and also it's limitlessness, if that makes sense, to add power to the messages of Christ. But, again, such a personal take! Read, read and read again I would say! It is wonderful you are asking these questions, and right, and good, as this is how faith becomes strong. You aren't sinking mate, you are swimming towards a greater personal conviction and understanding!

Adi

Hi Adi,

When I can afford to I would definately love to read that book. I love what you believe personally and I really wish that I get to that belief some time. Could you please share with me how you got to believing in a metaphysical Jesus? I know this is very individual but I want to learn more about how people arrive at their own beliefs. Thanks for your encouragement mate. I really do feel like part of the family here.

[Adi Gibb]

Hi Spiritseeker,

No probs, would be more than happy to share my journey which is, of course, ongoing!

When I was an undergraduate I was spirtual but certainly not religious, in any way, and quite anti-Christianity, which I took to be the Church at the time. An Irish tutor at Uni, when I was doing a subject on comparative religions, told me that we inherit certain views, rose-coloured glasses, from our culture, our parents etc. And we need to take them off, crush them underfoot, and build our own, which won't be as pretty or as comfortable, but they will be strong! That is what I started to do. Then I had a realisation, through a thought exercise in a Philosophy course that I won't bore you with, that I believed in a force and a power beyond human cognisance. Thus I realised I was deep down a theist.

Many years later, after exploring almost all the major religions, including paganism, I attended the first of three Alpha courses I would go to, encouraged by a Christian friend of mine. The Rector at the Church this was held at was amazing. Through his actions, not his words, I realised he was showing me what 'real' christianity was, and I liked it! Two other things happened over the course of these three Alpha courses. Firstly, I had what I call an 'Indiana Jones' moment. You know that part in the Last Crusade when he has to take that leap of faith? I had been beating my head on an intellectual brick wall about the metaphysical side of Christ, particularly the resurrection. Somebody said to me at this Alpha night, 'Tell me, do you WANT to believe in it?'. I thought about it and I realised I did. So I took a leap of faith, and continued my questioning with an open mind, and a willingness to accept something beyond the laws of nature, and suddenly I had certainty! I know that sounds backwards, but that's how it happened for me. I also, around this time, found a painting called 'The Light of the World', by Holman Hunt. In this painting Jesus is holding a lantern in a darkened world and is knocking on a door. The door is overgrown with weeds and vines. Somebody said to Holman Hunt, "You made a mistake, the handle of the door is missing, Jesus can't come through!". To which he replied, "Yes he can, the door just has to open from the inside!" I realised I hadn't opened that door, and that it wasn't about me 'finding' Jesus, he was there knocking, I just had to let him in.

All of these things, plus my ongoing belief in God as a 'Limitless Divine', has led me to this point.

This is just my story, of course, but I hope it helps.

Adi

[rivanna]

Spiritseeker,

I agree with what others have suggested, you can see Jesus as the human face of God, without tormenting yourself as to whether he had the same powers. Reading books like Borg/Wright, Spong, etc will help you sort out your beliefs. You don’t need to confront every issue about the historical Jesus--the important thing is to trust in his presence, know you can relate to him. Feel free to pick and choose the elements that ring true for you. Everyone does create their own version, whether they are aware of it or not. The gospels were left inconsistent with each other, intentionally--showing different approaches are not only acceptable but necessary.

One inconsistency that intrigues me is the conflict between the nature miracles like walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fish etc; and the opening scene of Jesus’ ministry. That kind of messiah is exactly the identity he rejected during his 40 days in the desert, refusing to turn stones into bread or jump off a cliff to prove his immortality. So you could say this introduction invites us to view some stories as myth, or as part real, part poetic exaggeration. It’s OK to let some mystery remain.

To me, whether all the supernatural events actually happened is not so essential as knowing that Jesus made an incredibly strong impression on people. Perhaps the one undisputed truth was Jesus’ ability to heal individuals, physically and psychologically. His words and actions transformed people’s lives for the better. To me, that seems like the core of what has been kept alive all these centuries, the basis for faith.
Hope you find more peace of mind.

[Mike]

Hi Spiritseeker,

Adi’s story about his experience with the painting brought to mind my own experience standing before some stained glass windows at my church. There is a picture of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, another of the empty tomb guarded by two angels. These paintings are not realistic, they are more impressionist...suggestive, they appeal to both the conscious and unconscious mind. I stood before them about a year ago ago wondering if Christianity really had any relevance to me. I realized a while before then that there is nothing out there in the world of scholarship or apologetics that could possibly satisfy the mind’s desire for intellectual certainty. The mind can seek and not truly know what it is after, and that is why it is important to search and be open to the unexpected places it may lead, because the truth really sought may not be the truth one has in mind as the object of his search. 'Seek and you shall find', yes, but what you find is not always what you sought, perhaps God knows what you're really after and it's not what you think, who can say? Do any of us actually know what we want and what would satisfy us ultimately?

Anyway, having seen no intellectual certainty about such matters, I think perhaps 'religious truth' would have to operate according to a different mode of understanding. (We should probably not bring what is more-or-less the scientific method with us to church.) The stained glass paintings brought to my heart and mind a living reality not dependent on the historical/critical method. Like the use of icons in the Orthodox church, they turn the mind to metaphysical truth, not historical reconstruction. Looking into the past for Jesus, or for the ’truth’ about Jesus, for me is to miss the point and could not possibly satisfy me at this point. The Christian faith, after all, emphatically states that Jesus did not stay dead. And if Jesus is not a matter of the accidents of history, is not a relic of the past to be analyzed, then he is a matter of metaphysical truth. The past is but a memory, but Jesus must remain a living reality for the church. Like I said before, I’m not very much concerned about historical reconstructions and what ‘really happened’ then. The church, right from its beginnings in the book of acts, relied not on reconstructions or objective evidence but their own subjective experiences of what they understood to be the spirit of Jesus. Who can really say who Jesus was? But ‘who Jesus was’ is not what I find in the stained glass windows - I see ‘who Jesus is.’

This post has been edited by Mike: 17 October 2009 - 10:10 AM

[XianAnarchist]

I'm glad Mike brought up icons. The metaphor of an icon is (from what I can tell) becoming a popular one for Jesus. His person and work as recorded in narrative is an icon through which we meditate upon the divine and its calling in our lives. Of course, the metaphor falls short in a variety of different ways. But metaphors aren't meant to be exhaustive. If they were, they wouldn't be metaphors, now would they?

Regarding the struggle to understand, when I go through rough theological periods and can't seem to wrap my mind around my experience or what I believe, an image that helps me is that of infant baptism. In baptism, through the symbol of water, we declare that God's claiming power over us is not dependent upon whether we "get it" or not. God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

[Mike]

XianAnarchist, on 17 October 2009 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'm glad Mike brought up icons. The metaphor of an icon is (from what I can tell) becoming a popular one for Jesus. His person and work as recorded in narrative is an icon through which we meditate upon the divine and its calling in our lives. Of course, the metaphor falls short in a variety of different ways. But metaphors aren't meant to be exhaustive. If they were, they wouldn't be metaphors, now would they?

Regarding the struggle to understand, when I go through rough theological periods and can't seem to wrap my mind around my experience or what I believe, an image that helps me is that of infant baptism. In baptism, through the symbol of water, we declare that God's claiming power over us is not dependent upon whether we "get it" or not. God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

I wasn't aware of the 'icon-metaphor' so it hadn't solidified in my mind as such, but now that you have pointed it out I must confess that it comes very close to my own approach to Christ. Thanks for your input.

Peace to you,
Mike

[Jay Tee]

rivanna, on 17 October 2009 - 09:46 AM, said:

One inconsistency that intrigues me is the conflict between the nature miracles like walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fish etc; and the opening scene of Jesus’ ministry. That kind of messiah is exactly the identity he rejected during his 40 days in the desert, refusing to turn stones into bread or jump off a cliff to prove his immortality. So you could say this introduction invites us to view some stories as myth, or as part real, part poetic exaggeration. It’s OK to let some mystery remain.

To me, whether all the supernatural events actually happened is not so essential as knowing that Jesus made an incredibly strong impression on people. Perhaps the one undisputed truth was Jesus’ ability to heal individuals, physically and psychologically. His words and actions transformed people’s lives for the better. To me, that seems like the core of what has been kept alive all these centuries, the basis for faith.
Hope you find more peace of mind.

This may be a slight degression but I think it is related enough to warrent inclusion.

The inconsistency between his nature miracles and his 40 days in the desert I don't see as inconsistency. I do them as actually happening (at least the possibility that could legitimately happen) but with a different focus. One was the focus of glorifying God, the other of giving in the Satan. An action or inaction is right or wrong quite often based upon the motivation. This cn easily lead into other areas of discussion. If there are related posts elsewhere please point me in that direction.

As far as the one undeniable truth was Jesus' ability to heal individuals, yes, that is Jesus and is part of what Jesus means to me. I do believe he can and sometimes does heal physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I do believe the power is out there if we comply with the way things are to be, but sometimes evil just happens. Read Job. In the end, we may not understand why good happens to bad people or bad happens to good people, but "be still and now that I am God" seems like the way to go.

Did I get too far off track? Hope not.

[Jay Tee]

In response to Mike who poste yesterday at 11:04am

Carl Sagan in Contact has one of the characters, a religous spiritual dude I think it was, say something like science and religion are in search of the same thing, Truth, but in different ways.

Too many people rely on ration means to try to apprehend the non-rational. Non-rational does not mean irrational, as if that is always a good thing. Rationally speaking, there is no reason to love an individual who cries all the time, can't take care of herself, and keeps waking you up in the middle of the night because she has needs. Yet, when my daughter was born, I loved her nontheless, for nonrational reasons, for emotional ones. It is through that giving of unconditional love that I started to understand God's unconditional love me and therefore to start to accept it. Rational means didn't serve me well, they were stumbling blocks. An unexpected pregnancy and a wonderful gift from God changed that in nonrational means.

The scientific method is excellent for things that are observable, measurable, can be subjected to experiments that have reliability and validity, but are crap for anything that cannot be directly observed on a regular base, can not be objectively measured, can not be replicated or tested in a labatory. Things like God and spirituallity and religion and Jesus, for example. That requires other methods.

[Jay Tee]

XianAnarchist, on 17 October 2009 - 02:59 PM, said:

God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

Well, I am not so certain about the securely part of the above remark, but the playpen of this world could include a live-in relationship that went way far south (apologies to my Southern Dad), that sucked, that was the long dark tea time of my soul, that revealed to me that well, not all sins were hers, that not all of my intentions were noble, and yet, produced, after some counselling and lots of questioning God, which did included accusations and blaming of Him, a wonderful daughter that is teaching me a lot more about maturity and growing up which really helps in religious and spiritual matters. It is because of her that we are attending church more often. It is because of her that I have to come up with some sort of answers to whys. It is because of her that I learn what a healthy, God-filled relationship is like.

Two things come straight to mind about this.

The mother of my child was going to jump state with her "friend" and not tell me where she was going. I could do nothing about it until well after the fact. And even then things were limited. I struggled with this for a long time until I realized that no matter how well I could take care of daughter, God can and will take better care of her, and that no matter how much I love my daughter, God loves her (and me) even more. I found peace then, but still suffered, but still hurt, but still felt anxiety, but I still felt at peace that things would be alright, but I still found solace in God's grace.

Mom had trouble accepting Jesus, who is on high according to her emotional frame of mind, coming down to earth. She could not accept he did it out of love, that He would leave Heaven for her. She felt guilty that Jesus had to do it for her. I believe I said something along the lines that Jesus did not have to, that he wanted to, that he wasn't coming to stay, but to meet her halfway so that he could bring her up to Heaven with him. I'm not sure how that worked out in her mind but years later, when she was told she had less than a year to live due to cancer, we talked (after lots of crying) and she said:

She brightened up. "If I live, I'm the Lord's"
She had a look of a new revelation. "If I die, I'm the Lord's."
She brightened up again. "Either way, I'm the Lord's."
Then she had a look of acceptance and exasperation. "But I don't want to die."
She had accepted her mortality and yet did not deny her humanity. We both learned something that day, and came to terms.

To her, as to me, Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Don't know how that works, but I do find biblical support for it.

So, Grace abounds - and what does Jesus mean to me? I shared some more of what Jesus means to me. Thanks for asking.

This post has been edited by Jay Tee: 18 October 2009 - 11:31 AM

[tsisqua]

Hello, and this is also my first post outside of the welcome board.

This is only my own view, and I am so at peace with it:
The Jesus of history, for me, is very important. The gospels purport to
be a reconstruction of an orally transmitted history. This means that there
is a great amount of room for literary liscense on the part of first century believers.
This is not to say that his words and works as we have them in the bible are falsifications, but rather show what early followers had come to believe about him.

However, some of the parables and one-liners recorded in the gospels could have only one source, and that is Jesus himself. The admonition to love one's enemies is quite unique to wisdom teaching in the world. A paradox is implied: he who loves his enemies truly has none. To love one's neighbor
has many paralells, particularly in Jewish tradition. But to love one's enemies is to be like God
who gives even the ungodly and wicked the blessings of his universe.

That early christians believed in a ressurection is indisputable; they willingly died
horrible deaths at the hands of Domition and Nero for that belief. To say that there is
no external evidence for Jesus' existence is a falsehood. Granted, the works of Josephus
has probably been tampered with, but what do you do with Cornelius Tacitus who would indeed
have had access to first century documents relating to Jesus' execution as he related it?
Tacitus was certainly no friend of christianity. With all this available history, plus
the writings of Pliny (the younger), a historical Jesus is all but a certainty. That his
pupils would have remembered the core of his teachings is just as likely, seeing
the zeal they exhibited for him.

"Blessed are the poor . . . "

Are you poor? Then congratulations are in order: You are residents of the Kingdom!

The parables exhibit a Jesus who knew God experientially . . . a teacher who placed
equal value on societies marginalzed citizens. A jesus who called us his brothers
and sisters. A Jesus who we should strive to be like inasmuch as possible, with God's help.

And yes, a human representation of God's divinity and love.

Here's hoping that, along with the other most beautiful, thoughtful and
caring replies, perhaps I may have brought an additional aspect of
Jesus to help you along with your search.

My prayer is that you continue to find him precious to
your soul.

In His Love,
Tsisqua

[Mike]

Hello, Tsisqua

tsisqua, on 18 October 2009 - 03:55 PM, said:

That early christians believed in a ressurection is indisputable; they willingly died
horrible deaths at the hands of Domition and Nero for that belief. To say that there is
no external evidence for Jesus' existence is a falsehood. Granted, the works of Josephus
has probably been tampered with, but what do you do with Cornelius Tacitus who would indeed
have had access to first century documents relating to Jesus' execution as he related it?
Tacitus was certainly no friend of christianity. With all this available history, plus
the writings of Pliny (the younger), a historical Jesus is all but a certainty. That his
pupils would have remembered the core of his teachings is just as likely, seeing
the zeal they exhibited for him.

I think there are few scholars who would argue that there was no historical Jesus. There may be many who make this claim, but it is not a claim that I can take seriously. I tend to also attribute the 'zeal' to Pentecost - or, at least the experiences of the early church typified by Pentecost. Paul was not a pupil of Jesus, in fact he did not have any connection to Jesus at all apart from his experience of what he perceived to be the Spirit of Jesus, yet his zeal was nonetheless one he carried to his death.

I think it is appropriate to say that the New Testament is to a degree rooted in historical memory, yet it is equally important to note that zeal for Jesus did not only belong - did not belong even primarily - to the people who had personally known him, since those who had known him personally were just a handful and those who have followed him to the grave are as the stars of heaven. For good or ill, Jesus is now out of their hands and belonging to us. That is why I do not consider historical reconstructions to have primary importance for the church (although we do learn important things from them, I do not follow any thinking that would force me to believe such matters are ultimately important), for while we can be quite certain that Jesus did exist, it is by nature a debate about what actually goes back to him, and it is too much of a leap to go from 'Jesus the historical figure' to the 'Jesus of Christology' based on the historical-critical method alone. If the truth of Jesus were truly about, or dependent upon historical proofs, eyewitnesses, and reconstructions, then, to me, matters are especially uncertain for those of us who are 2,000+ years removed from the events in question (and perhaps for most everybody who never personally met Jesus). For me there is a problem in the very approach because too much weight is placed on intellectual pursuits and speculation rather than religious/spiritual realities. It is not that there is anything wrong with such pursuits, but when it comes to the heart of one's faith/religious experience, they can become counterproductive to the very intent of religious truth, in my experience. I mean this in the sense that 'religious truth' ought to be about truth that is accessible to the individual, and I do not see the ultimate end of being occupied by questions whose answers are ultimately unavailable, perhaps even in principle.

Anyway, your post was well written and I appreciate it. I do not by this post mean to challenge you, and I do not presume or imply that you are arguing for what I have been writing against. This has simply been my reaction to what you have written, for whatever it may be worth. Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

Quote

The parables exhibit a Jesus who knew God experientially . . . a teacher who placed
equal value on societies marginalzed citizens. A jesus who called us his brothers
and sisters. A Jesus who we should strive to be like inasmuch as possible, with God's help.

And yes, a human representation of God's divinity and love.

Here's hoping that, along with the other most beautiful, thoughtful and
caring replies, perhaps I may have brought an additional aspect of
Jesus to help you along with your search.

My prayer is that you continue to find him precious to
your soul.

...they exhibit a genuine Christian spirit.

Peace to you,
Mike

This post has been edited by Mike: 18 October 2009 - 08:20 PM

[Mike]

Hi Jay Tee,

Jay Tee, on 18 October 2009 - 11:46 AM, said:

In response to Mike who poste yesterday at 11:04am

Carl Sagan in Contact has one of the characters, a religous spiritual dude I think it was, say something like science and religion are in search of the same thing, Truth, but in different ways.

Too many people rely on ration means to try to apprehend the non-rational. Non-rational does not mean irrational, as if that is always a good thing. Rationally speaking, there is no reason to love an individual who cries all the time, can't take care of herself, and keeps waking you up in the middle of the night because she has needs. Yet, when my daughter was born, I loved her nontheless, for nonrational reasons, for emotional ones. It is through that giving of unconditional love that I started to understand God's unconditional love me and therefore to start to accept it. Rational means didn't serve me well, they were stumbling blocks. An unexpected pregnancy and a wonderful gift from God changed that in nonrational means.

The scientific method is excellent for things that are observable, measurable, can be subjected to experiments that have reliability and validity, but are crap for anything that cannot be directly observed on a regular base, can not be objectively measured, can not be replicated or tested in a labatory. Things like God and spirituallity and religion and Jesus, for example. That requires other methods.

I wholeheartedly agree, I see science as good and true for the kinds of questions it asks, but when it comes seeking spiritual wisdom, science is incapable of supplying it. That's just the way things are - no system or methodology is intrinsically complete unto itself, there is always room in reality for more, for a different approach, a different way of relating. Kung in his book "The Beginning of All Things" sums it up quite nicely when he reports that even Steven Hawking had to admit that reality cannot exhausted by any finite string of axioms, such are the limitations of logic. There goes the 'theory of everything.'

Jay Tee, on 18 October 2009 - 12:13 PM, said:

Well, I am not so certain about the securely part of the above remark, but the playpen of this world could include a live-in relationship that went way far south (apologies to my Southern Dad), that sucked, that was the long dark tea time of my soul, that revealed to me that well, not all sins were hers, that not all of my intentions were noble, and yet, produced, after some counselling and lots of questioning God, which did included accusations and blaming of Him, a wonderful daughter that is teaching me a lot more about maturity and growing up which really helps in religious and spiritual matters. It is because of her that we are attending church more often. It is because of her that I have to come up with some sort of answers to whys. It is because of her that I learn what a healthy, God-filled relationship is like.

Two things come straight to mind about this.

The mother of my child was going to jump state with her "friend" and not tell me where she was going. I could do nothing about it until well after the fact. And even then things were limited. I struggled with this for a long time until I realized that no matter how well I could take care of daughter, God can and will take better care of her, and that no matter how much I love my daughter, God loves her (and me) even more. I found peace then, but still suffered, but still hurt, but still felt anxiety, but I still felt at peace that things would be alright, but I still found solace in God's grace.

Mom had trouble accepting Jesus, who is on high according to her emotional frame of mind, coming down to earth. She could not accept he did it out of love, that He would leave Heaven for her. She felt guilty that Jesus had to do it for her. I believe I said something along the lines that Jesus did not have to, that he wanted to, that he wasn't coming to stay, but to meet her halfway so that he could bring her up to Heaven with him. I'm not sure how that worked out in her mind but years later, when she was told she had less than a year to live due to cancer, we talked (after lots of crying) and she said:

She brightened up. "If I live, I'm the Lord's"
She had a look of a new revelation. "If I die, I'm the Lord's."
She brightened up again. "Either way, I'm the Lord's."
Then she had a look of acceptance and exasperation. "But I don't want to die."
She had accepted her mortality and yet did not deny her humanity. We both learned something that day, and came to terms.

To her, as to me, Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Don't know how that works, but I do find biblical support for it.

So, Grace abounds - and what does Jesus mean to me? I shared some more of what Jesus means to me. Thanks for asking.

Thanks for sharing this it was quite powerful.


Peace to you,
Mike