[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I had thought that the bump on the head during the ice storm occurred to add mystery about whether Mack was imagining all that is to come, but maybe it was just a smack upside the head from God. Maybe Mack needed to be woozy to consider the possibility of the invitation being genuine at all. I think there is something symbolic to this happening in the winter - during a winter of Mack's life.

I had thought the "Confluence of Paths" title meant that Mack can go forward either way. Either he can choose to keep "keeping on" or he can meet Papa at the Shack. There is free will in that decision. The "Road Less Traveled" is to choose to involve God in our lives instead of settling for less. Maybe that is why the butchering of Frost's poetry appears at the beginning of the chapter.

Maybe we should be sensitive to potential spoilers for those who are reading this for the first time who might be looking in. Or maybe not. So far it seems like the three of us.

[glintofpewter]

Quote

I had thought the "Confluence of Paths" title meant that Mack can go forward either way.

Yes winter. Will we have more winter?

Quote

Maybe we should be sensitive to potential spoilers

Good idea.

Dutch

[billmc]

Darn, I can't seem to find my book! I'll keep hunting.

The reflective "Time of Great Sadness" piqued my interest, wondering what happened in Mack's life. I found it interesting that this "dark night of the soul" was given a name, almost personified. I'll admit, I've never gone through what Mack has, but I still know the feeling of being alone, feeling isolated. As I read this chapter, I couldn't help but think of Jesus' cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" Interesting that he never received a reply. It's my belief that in our own "dark nights of the soul", when we often ask, "Why me?", we are really asking, "God, where are you?"

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Bill, I'd like to wait to move on until you have found your book, if possible. I agree that the personification of "The Great Sadness" seems accurate. I have not been depressed, but several close family members have been. Yuck!

[billmc]

“There is something joyful about storms that interrupt routine.” Good line. Storms, literal and metaphorical, often make me want to, at the same time, retreat into safety and face the fury head on for the exhilaration of being alive.

Growing up in upstate New York, I well knew the damage that an ice storm can do – treacherous roads, downed power lines, car accidents, frozen water supplies. But at the same time, glimpsing an ice storm for the first time in the morning was like seeing the world stop turning. Time seemed to stand still. Nothing seemed to be moving, as if Father Time had himself fallen asleep. And nothing topped the joy of hearing the radio announce that our school was closed for the day!

“Papa.” Interesting that Mack had known God as “Papa” in the past, even though in chapter one Mack is ticked at Him. I’ve never known God as an intimate father figure. I’ve always wanted to. But, to me, God was always a judge, not a “daddy.” I envy people that enjoy a sense of closeness to God this way. It has never been my experience.

Mack’s accident. Though fictional, one of the reasons that I don’t believe in a God who protects, a God who saves, a God who is a deliver, a God who is a mighty fortress. God, as I conceive of God, doesn’t protect us whatsoever from the pains of life, whether it is falling and hitting our head or experiencing tragedies like the one that leads to Mack’s great sadness. God may enable us to endure hurt and grow from pain, but he certainly doesn’t seem to give a damn about protecting us from it.

“I’m sure God knows what he is doing. It will all work out.” A copout. Real life teaches us that things don’t always “work out.” People commit suicide. Children die of starvation or cancer. The belief that God is somehow behind all of this and “knows what he is doing” just doesn’t ring true for me. I don’t believe God is in control. In a way, I can admire that Mack still clings to his theistic faith. But Young writes, “the words brought him no comfort.” Typical Christianese. Sounds good. But doesn’t stand up to the truth of life experiences.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Bill, I'm with you in the thought that God does not protect us from pain. It does seem like God's presence amidst the pain can help a person grow and learn. I haven't thought of God as Papa, either, but my father was always a wise, loving role model, so father works for me.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I think it was Nan who called God "Papa." I also forgot to say that I have always felt a more "personal relationship" with Jesus than with God the Father.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Dutch and Bill,
Would the two of you like for me to email and see if I can find others to join in our discussion before we move on, or do we just want to forge ahead? I'm okay either way.

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 14 September 2009 - 12:04 AM, said:

Dutch and Bill,
Would the two of you like for me to email and see if I can find others to join in our discussion before we move on, or do we just want to forge ahead? I'm okay either way.

Email is fine with me, Janet. I couldn't find my book so I went to Halfprice Books yesterday and bought one. In looking for an online version, this book sure has polarized alot of Christians! Isn't Christianity fun?

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Dutch? I think I'll send out an email quickly, because I'm thinking you wouldn't mind if others join us.

[glintofpewter]

Yes, janet

I would enjoy more participants. Thanks for taking the lead on this.

Dutch

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

This is what I sent out to my small church group. So far, no response in my email:


I have just started an online book discussion about The Shack, by William Paul Young. Right now, there are only 3 of us in the discussion group, and we are just now talking about Chapter 1, so we'd love it if you join us.

It is hosted through the Center for Progressive Christianity. www.tcpc.org You may want to look around here and see if you would be comfortable discussing the book with progressive Christians or not. It is not necessary to agree with all the 8 points of progressive christianity in order to do the book discussions, but at least you'd have some background. You can click on the link to the messsage board and then Book Discussions and then The Shack, or this quick link might work. I am AllintheNameofProgress on the board. http://tcpc.ipbhost....-wm-paul-young/

Hope to see you in the forum!

Janet

[glintofpewter]

Janet

I copied your email and sent to a few friends.

Dutch

[JosephM]

You might mention in your email that we need an email address other than AOL when registering and to allow mail from @tcpc.org Presently AOL kicks out our validation emails as unsolicited spam. This necessitates a lot of extra communications on my part using a personal email address to try to get them to use an alternate to get them registered. I will do my best to get their registration approved as quickly as possible.

JosephM(as Admin)

[glintofpewter]

Thanks Joseph
I let those with AOL addresses know.
Dutch

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I haven't gotten any responses to my invitation, so I'm happy to proceed at this point.

Janet

[billmc]

Chapter 2

This chapter, for me, brought back some good memories and some troubling ones, perhaps like Mack.

In 1987, I was hired as an electronic technician for Tektronix, a company that mainly makes oscilloscopes. Upon hiring me, they sent me to their headquarters in Beaverton, Oregon for a number of classes and I took the opportunity to see the local sights while I was there. I remember driving up the Columbia River and seeing Multnomah Falls. The falls are beautiful, breath-taking, and Young describes them better than I can. But if you can find a picture of them on the web, you'll get some sense (although just a taste) of what they are really like.

These experiences not only brought back good memories of my younger years, but helped me see Mack and Missy in the context of the story. I find it interesting, especially with nature, how stories or myths grow up around certain locales that tend to lend themselves as "sacred ground." In reality, I don't think that there is any such thing as "holy ground" or "thin places" where heaven meets earth. I tend to think that it is WE and our experiences that make these places holy, not some kind of longitude and latitude of spiritual doorways.

Mack's recounting of the sacrifice of the Indian maid was touching and, as Mack later points out, akin to the Jesus myth of redemption. These myths are, of course, sacred to us, they stir something in us and tell us that it is true that nothing is more powerful than true love. At the same time, Missy's questions show that she has a "theological problem" with understanding the Indian myth.

I share her struggle, but with the Christian myth. Although Mack makes the analogy of the sacrifice of the princess and the sacrifice of Jesus, the truth of the Christian message in our time is that if you don't believe the message, then the sacrifice does you no good. In the Indian tale, the princess' sacrifice led to all the ill waking up healed the next morning. No "personal faith" in the sacrifice was required. No believing in the deity of the princess was necessary. The healing of the sick was based, not on their faith and understanding, but upon a transaction between the Great Spirit and the Indian princess. If the princess' tale was told within the Christian framework, the only Indians to be healed would be the ones who believed in what the princess had done.

Missy's question about why the princess HAD to die was a good one. And I won't reveal any spoilers. But many modern people are asking the same thing of the Christian myth: "If God is a forgiving God, then why was Jesus' death absolutely necessary?" The conservatives point to the scripture in Hebrews that says, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." But the testimony of the rest of the Bible asserts that God had always forgiven people if they asked for it sincerely. So the modern Christian myth that Jesus HAD TO DIE in order for God to forgive us is a distortion, IMO, of God's character. In fact, if the Indian tale bears any resemblance to the truth of redemption, it sort of leads to universalism, doesn't it?

[JosephM]

Bill,

I won't be participating actively in this thread since I have not and probably will not be reading the book but since I read all the posts anyway, i thought i would comment (at the risk of sounding condescending) that it seems your comments on chapter 2 are well written and brings up items of interest and questions to perhaps all .

JOSEPH

[glintofpewter]

Bill

Quote

In fact, if the Indian tale bears any resemblance to the truth of redemption, it sort of leads to universalism, doesn't it?

Two passages that suggest the universalism you mention are John 12:32 and Romans 5:18. The Romans passage varies on just how many but does say "All" once. John is clear, and the context is that the "ruler of this world will be driven out. And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up will draw all people to myself." Depending on one's viewpoint there are final hurdles to get over or there is universal grace.

So why are we Christians? Perhaps the connection between the falls and the story of the Princess holds a clue. The story of the Princess is tied to a place. The story of Jesus also is tied to a time and a place. For most of us that means Jesus, as we each understand him, is our way to the Divine whether his story is a legend with a lesson, with a truth or a "true story".

I'm caught in Young's folding two parts of the story on top of each other. In a movie would Mack be having nightmares about the future. He does not seem someone who is worried about he future. The Phillips are portrayed as a well adjusted happy family. Even Kate loves her father and recognizes the deep nature of the questions Missy asks.

"That evening, as he sat among three laughing children watching one of nature's greatest shows, Mack's heart was penetrated by unexpected joy. ... He was a rich man, he thought to himself, in all ways that mattered."

It isn't a family that looks good on the outside but is weakened on the inside. They are ordinarily competent enough to handle most things that come their way. My spiritual journeys have been triggered when I realized that my faith wasn't strong enough to get me through a particular hard time. Why bad things happen to good people? Homosexuality and the Bible? Of course this is head knowledge. The knowing that Mack has will not help him:

From the forward
His favorite topics were all about God and creation and why people believe the way they do

Mack is above average: smart, competent, independent man and loving father. And his world is good.

Dutch

[billmc]

glintofpewter, on 20 September 2009 - 03:53 AM, said:

Mack is above average: smart, competent, independent man and loving father. And his world is good.

I enjoyed your thoughts on this chapter, Dutch. Yes, Young portrays Mack as someone whose world is good, perhaps as a modern analogy to Job. Despite what some Christians claim, the Bible does say, in some passages, that the righteous will prosper and that the wicked will suffer. But then we have passages like those found in Job where humans seem to be little more than pawns in a chess game between God and Satan. Job is one of the books of the Bible that I simply don't understand. In Job, God seems to think that the principle of giving Job two children back for the one he lost is equitable, just. I feel like Mack, shaking my fist towards heaven, "You stupid idiot, do You think giving me two children in the future could possibly remove the pain of losing one child now? Do You think that I count children like You count hairs on the head?"

My wife and I lost two children to miscarriage. And it was inevitable that people would say to us, "Don't worry, you are young, you can have more." While they are technically/scientifically correct, they didn't seem to understand that we saw our pregnacies as a gift from God and we couldn't understand why God would allow the pregnancies to self-abort. We were already talking about names, room colors, colleges. What we discovered, perhaps like Mack, is that although our world can be good, it can go to sh!t so fast that it leaves one devastated, wondering where God is. Where is this all-seeing, protective deity who, according to the Bible, is not willing that ANY should perish. And yet, thousands of children die from hunger and cancer in our world everyday.

But like you, I am also touched and stirred by redemptive stories, by stories of sacrifice (not to appease a deity's anger but to give one's life for another). There is something about those stories that moves us and tells us that we have the capability to grow as a species beyond just the need for self-survival. It is just that the "mechanics" of how these "sacrifices" work don't often add up, at least for me. How does blood wash away sin? The Bible doesn't explain this. Maybe our best redemption stories, like that of the Indian princess, can only be told, not explained. Missy wants an explanation. Bright child. Good questions, yes. But questions that are, IMO, unanswerable. Christians say that someday, in the great by-and-by, all will be revealed, we will finally get our questions answered. I doubt it. If God can't answer the question of theodicy NOW, then there is no reason to expect that he will answer it LATER.