[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 03 November 2009 - 05:22 PM, said:

Should we move on to Ch. 10?

Janet, I've already shared what little stood out to me from this chapter in post #128. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this chapter.

[glintofpewter]

Janet I would guess you meant c. 11

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Both of you, I am loving this conversation!! I am definitely reading "The Shack" as a lover/poet. It is like a fable to me.

I agree. I was thinking it could a temporary part of the canon. One pastor years back would frequently use Narnia illustrations (along with USC/UCLA football ones). The Shack could be a series. Like the Bible you like some of it and don't like some of it - that's conversation worth listening to.

Dutch

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Yep, I meant 11. I couldn't figure out how the judge fit into the trinity, not that I'm hung up on the trinity, but I thought Young probably was.

I liked the idea that it is knowing that grows and not love. It was interesting to think how much judging I probably do in a day without thinking of it. I need to be more conscious of that. I have moved to the point of not being too irritated with others in my life, even if they are a bit rude, because who knows where they are coming from and what else they have to deal with in life.

I don't think human inability to do something (like damn children to hell) necessarily corresponds to a conclusion that God wouldn't do it either, but in this case I like what it says about God -- he loves us too much to condemn any of us to an eternity of torment. God must have a better plan, even if I don't know exactly what it is

Once again Young sidesteps the issue of how different Papa is from how God is portrayed in the biblical record, but I like how Young talks about getting to know God fro how God is. "Then you will be able to embrace his love in the midst of your pain, instead of pushing him away with your self-centered perception of how you think the universe should be."

I don't buy that the cross was the beginning of mercy triumphing over justice because of love. God forgave the Ninevites and many others in the Old Testament.

I kind of felt it was cruel at this point that the judge showed Mack Missy, but she couldn't hear him. It was a nice picture to think of all his children playing with Jesus together. I just wasn't sure why Mack couldn't join in the fun, too.

I liked the paragraph where the judge suggested that Mack let goe of the lie that he was to blame for Missy's death. Even if he had been to blame, Missy's love is much stronger than Mack's fault could ever be.

Replacing old carpet tomorrow, so it may be awhile before I join in again....

Janet

[billmc]

I enjoyed your thoughts on this chapter, Janet. I, too, think that Young does a good job of showing how Mack is changing...but not a very good job of showing how God is changing or how human perceptions of God have changed. For me, this was key to my growth as a progressive person; I couldn't have retained belief in God if God was forever frozen in the Yahweh perspective of the OT. It was a blessed day in my life when I discovered the freedom to acknowledge that all concepts of God, even those found in the scriptures, are human conceptions, not divine revelations.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Amen, Bill! That was a freeing thing for me, too.

[glintofpewter]

Bill, Janet,

I'm going to have to leave the conversation. It has been enjoyable and challenging. Janet I owe you for recommending the book. Expectancy - we haven't come to that but it is a favorite and that's the page you referred me to.

Bill,
You are going in the direction we are called, although MHO matters not. The most important part is the work. Everything else supports it. Your company on the journey here and elsewhere expanded my horizons.

I still have work to do at the house and do not have access to a computer on a regular basis. Moving after 30 years of marriage is physically and emotionally exhausting. This was the only forum I was posting in but I have to leave your company for now.

Thanks for everything
Dutch

[billmc]

glintofpewter, on 06 November 2009 - 04:37 PM, said:

I still have work to do at the house and do not have access to a computer on a regular basis. Moving after 30 years of marriage is physically and emotionally exhausting. This was the only forum I was posting in but I have to leave your company for now.

Dutch, it's been a real blessing to talk with you about this book and to get to know you better. I can only imagine what you are going through. You're in my thoughts and prayers. I consider you a good friend and I hope to see you again in the future as the ebb and flow of life allows.

Many blessings to you, my friend.

Namaste,
bill mc

[glintofpewter]

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I consider you a good friend and I hope to see you again in the future as the ebb and flow of life allows.

Bill,
Likewise and may it be so.

Dutch

[billmc]

Janet, with Dutch departing, do you still want to do a chapter by chapter discussion of this book? Or do you simply want to post a few closing remarks? What are your druthers?

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

glintofpewter, on 07 November 2009 - 05:50 PM, said:

Bill,
Likewise and may it be so.

Dutch

Dutch,
I totally understand your need to leave, and I am so, so sorry about the reason. Thanks for all you've taught me. I hope our paths will cross again.

Janet

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Bill,
I think your idea is a good call.

I think often about what Young has Jesus saying about church. I wish he had put the benefits of organized religion in there, to encourage people to check it out again. Churches are in no way perfect, but they serve a purpose,

When I first read the end of Chapter 12, I couldn't believe my evangelical friend had recommended the book to me. Jesus says he has no desire to make people Christians, and that those who love God come from every system. However, my evangelical friend said Jesus is saying he converts those people into believers but is just shying away from a misunderstood label (Christian). How you read this book says much more about the reader than the book I looked at the author's forum on the web, and he's intentionally backpeddling when the conservatives question his theology.

Independence is evil?? Not the way I'd like to look at God.

From CH. 14, "Paradigms power perception and perceptions power emotions" sounds like a bit of eastern religion truth creeping into our western Christianity....
The other thing that stuck with me from that chapter was the expectancy/expectation and ability to respond/responsibility thing. Well put! I still don't like Young's god, who needs to be the center of everything. If God needs to be the center of my life, it is because God wants the best for me, not because God has an ego problem.

With my personality, it would not be heavenly if all the angels were watching my reconciliation with my dad, but it must have been how Young would have wanted it. I thought my evangelical friend would object to the auras of the angels, since she's on the alert for anything New Age,but she didn't mention that.

The end of this book made me cry when I read it myself and I could barely get through it reading aloud to my kids in the car. Forgiveness does not imply relationship. The growth of Mackenzie in this story was profound, and to me, shows the power of God to change people's hearts. I loved what Papa said about having to declare forgiveness 100 times the first and second day, and that the need to declare forgiveness will diminish with time.

The insight in how to help Kate was the kind of thing that I think God can really send us if we pray/meditate on an issue.

It was a beautiful story, told by someone who thinks a bit differently about God than I do, but who had some wisdom I didn't before reading the book. The book reminded me of Mitch Albom's "For One More Day", where an alcoholic got to spend time with his dead mother to work on issues in his life. Transformation would be so much easier, if we could have these types of experiences.

Now, I want to hear your wrap-up, Bill! I've droned on far too long.

Janet

[glintofpewter]

Thanks Janet

Dutch

[billmc]

Hi Janet.

I liked your conclusions and for the most part, feel about the same way about the end of the book. So, if it's okay, I'd rather comment on your comments.

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 09 November 2009 - 09:08 AM, said:

Jesus says he has no desire to make people Christians, and that those who love God come from every system.

I like this also. I believe that Jesus calls us to be compassionate and just people. Due to my upbringing, I see compassion and justice in Jesus, but I would in no way claim that belief in Jesus is the only way to God.

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How you read this book says much more about the reader than the book.

I think that is very true. Even of the Bible.

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Independence is evil?? Not the way I'd like to look at God.

Yes, this sort of plays into the mentality of "God wants a whole bunch of children running around who don't do anything because they would mess it up. Just trust the Parent in the sky." I'm more prone to Robinson's take on this: "In a world filled with God, we have to learn to live without God." Robinson is simply saying that the theist God doesn't exist.

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I still don't like Young's god, who needs to be the center of everything. If God needs to be the center of my life, it is because God wants the best for me, not because God has an ego problem.

I couldn't agree more! I have a problem with a God who has such poor self-esteem that he constantly needs to be reminded how great he is. That is why, for me, worship is more about how I treat other people than it is about "singing praises." There is something emotional that I still find in that practice, but I just think that standing around God's throne in heaven, singing 'Amazing Grace' for 40 billion years is a boring thing to do.

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The insight in how to help Kate was the kind of thing that I think God can really send us if we pray/meditate on an issue.

Me too. I suspect we find alot of healing for ourselves when we endeavor to heal others. Guilt is such a paralyzing thing in our lives. I wish the church would give it up. But in most churches, though we might sing 'Amazing Grace', 'Awful Guilt' is practiced, especially when we are told how we are responsible for the death of Jesus.

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Now, I want to hear your wrap-up, Bill!

Well, I don't really have anything significant to add. As I think I mentioned at the beginning, Young does a poor job at answering the problem of theodicy, not because he doesn't try, but because the problem of theodicy only exist when one believes in an all-powerful God. But I think Young does a good job of showing how our lives are a tapestry and what we think are isolated experiences somehow tie together in our hearts. Mack does go through a transformation and I appreciate that. I just can't believe that that kind of transformation would happen in two days. Then again, Young's tale is a parable. For me, the strength of the story was the acceptance that Mack continually felt and the gentleness that God (in three persons) continually showed him. In some ways, Young's vision of God is very attractive to me. Who wouldn't want a God like that? But, when the rubber meets the road, I'm still not convinced that God is this way due to my own personal experiences. So I'll just try to remain open and see where things go.

Thank you so much, Janet, for chatting about this book with Dutch and I. It has been a wonderful, insightful discussion and I have grown, not so much from the book, but from my interactions with the both of you.

Blessings to ya,
bill

Janet
[/quote]

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Bill, Thanks for hanging in there, even though the book was not your favorite of all time I agree with your conclusions, and I, too, am better for discussing this book with you and Dutch.

See you on another forum. Charter for Compassion?

Janet

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 16 November 2009 - 12:29 AM, said:

See you on another forum. Charter for Compassion?

It didn't know there was one, Janet. Can you post or PM me the link?

Thanks.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I guess I used the wrong term I meant the "Charter For Compassion" topic you had started.

Charter for Compassion is on facebook, and there is a bit of discussion there.