[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I have appreciated what you've written, Bill, and I haven't found it caustic at all! You make good points, and I am not offended, because I don't see God as a vending machine/natural-law suspender either. I do hear in your writings that belief in the all-powerful, take care you God has brought pain into your life. I'm hoping that your FUMC will be a community of love where they put that love to good use in the world. With a focus on the Charter, I think it is likely!!

Dutch, thanks for sharing the story of your cousin and his mother. I can see where they are both coming from.

God doesn't have any favorites. God loves us all. I was at a Lutheran church for boy scouts the other night, and their book study title intrigued me: 8 Questions God Can't Answer. I told my son (age 15) that I had been thinking about it and couldn't think of any questions God can't answer. He replied, "That's easy. I can think of one!" I was amazed, since this is my skeptic... the question is "Who's your favorite?" I thought that was brilliant, and told him so, but he said, "You don't think I listen in church, but that was the topic of one of the sermons last week. Come on!" This is my son that came home from Sunday School at age 3 and said, "Is my skin made of dust?? Cause the Bible says people were made of dust, and I don't believe that." It will sure be interesting to see where my two boys end up in the faith equation. The good news is that we have been dialoguing for a LONG time, and they know it's okay to think for themselves.

Wow! That was a major digression, but it was at least as good as Chapter 9

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I'm taking a break from shoveling snow to comment on Ch. 10. I liked the part about Jesus freeing us from fears. For me, that is not because God is going to protect me from situations, but rather, God will be with me no matter what. I have struggled with this a lot in the past. I used to HATE Jesus' teaching like -- don't worry, the birds don't.

Walking on water sounded fun. It was interesting that Young brought an earth-abuse agenda into the book. The description of nature around the lake was beautiful.

I have found it to be true that submission is a more natural response if I am following Jesus' teachings. And I know my husband was relieved when I told him I no longer expected him to be God, to fulfill all my needs. So as much as I'd like to argue with Young's stereotypical writing, I read some truth in it.

My mind is resistant to the idea that woman was taken out of man and that all the males were birthed through the original woman and thus through God.

I also haven't experienced Jesus coming to live inside of me. I have experienced that when I focus on living the teachings of Jesus, I am more aware of healthy changes I can attempt to make, relying on the power of God to help. The more I try to glorify God with my life, the more I begin to see with God's eyes, etc. It's probably just a different way of saying it...

What did you think about Ch. 10, guys?

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 29 October 2009 - 11:31 AM, said:

For me, that is not because God is going to protect me from situations, but rather, God will be with me no matter what.

Janet, your statement intrigues me. In some ways, I feel as you do. But I sometimes wonder, how does the fact that God is with you, rather than protecting you, bring you joy or peace or comfort?

I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer, just wondering, from your perspective, what difference it makes to have an all-powerful being with you if that all-powerful being doesn't do something to protect you?

Any thoughts on this?

[glintofpewter]

I think other Chapters deal with the issues here better and that this is just expected imagery - walking on water

Quote

My mind is resistant to the idea that woman was taken out of man and that all the males were birthed through the original woman and thus through God.

I find the woman hid in man passage to be a contradiction of the statements against hierarchy - and objectionable. I think it places women in a subordinate class whose role is to provide men, and the supreme male, Jesus, who then brings us back to God.

Quote

Janet, your statement intrigues me. In some ways, I feel as you do. But I sometimes wonder, how does the fact that God is with you, rather than protecting you, bring you joy or peace or comfort?

I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer, just wondering, from your perspective, what difference it makes to have an all-powerful being with you if that all-powerful being doesn't do something to protect you?

Four or five weeks ago I had an appointment with my new doctor to discuss my recent hospitalization. This was to be the first time we met. I was anxious and perhaps embarrassed about the circumstances of that hospitalization; I was defensive. We touched three issues on the surface without connecting. My experience of that appointment was not good; my judgments were flying and I expected that he was also making judgments. In retrospect I thought I may even had misheard him. I scheduled another appointment because I felt this one had gone so poorly. This time I was expecting to have a good encounter, an honest encounter, and I was willing to give up my defensiveness nad some of my judgments about the doctor so that I might see him differently.

The second appointment went well. I talked about how my anxiety may have contributed to my symptoms and we discussed how that might affect the diagnosis. Dr. Mazzella was now not a skinny kid from the east with a nasal high pitched voice but someone who could help me be healthy. I had to give up my fears, my embarrasment and my expectations about doctors who look like they are 16.

When I expected the worse that is what I experienced. When I was open to something better that is what I experienced. I don't think it was a matter of hoping for the best, but being open to something real and perhaps better.

I think such experiences can result from different approaches. Being like Jesus, next to Jesus, having Jesus inside, doing the work of Jesus or seeing others do the work of Jesus - I think any of these can work for different people or at different times

Being on a mountain top, in a deep river canyon, on the horizonless prairie - or leaving the hall of a cancer ward and coloring with a child in a room - or bringing your family's favorite casserole instead of mac-n-cheese to the homeless shelter - or sitting quietly in the warm sun and feeling the breeze - if we are expecting to experience a divine love I am pretty sure it will happen in any of above situations. That is food for the journey.

I don't believe that God is all-anything except loving and that love is similar to the love of parent for a child, a spouse for their partner. When we work out of love for another we want what is best for them, but we can not stop much of the stuff that happens. Car accidents, cancer, failing grades, unemployment. What we can do is come alongside comforting listening suffering. So does God, the divine. In the Christian tradition we focus on the God of love as the center of our story. Days begun in prayer (whatever that looks like) and allowing ourselves to feel loved - those days end better.

Dutch

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

billmc, on 29 October 2009 - 09:46 AM, said:

Janet, your statement intrigues me. In some ways, I feel as you do. But I sometimes wonder, how does the fact that God is with you, rather than protecting you, bring you joy or peace or comfort?

I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer, just wondering, from your perspective, what difference it makes to have an all-powerful being with you if that all-powerful being doesn't do something to protect you?

Any thoughts on this?

I just looked at the forum again. We had a haunted house for neighborhood trick or treaters last night and worship today, so I haven't had time for computing.

I agree that this question is not a right/wrong answer one, but I love open-ended questions

I guess the way I would describe it is this: having God with me helps me gain perspective on bad situations. God's energy helps me find more creative solutions and tap new resources. Sometimes human relationships can be spotty during bad times, and thinking God loves me and is by my side, crying along with me, just makes me feel better. Once I wrote a song about it, after my best friend's brother died in a tragic car accident and she asked me the same question: "God gives us strength, God grants us wisdom, God sends us power, God gives us energy to survive and to love"

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from at all??

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

[quote name='glintofpewter' date='29 October 2009 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1256863719' post='19250']

I think such experiences can result from different approaches. Being like Jesus, next to Jesus, having Jesus inside, doing the work of Jesus or seeing others do the work of Jesus - I think any of these can work for different people or at different times"

Amen, Dutch! Well put!

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 01 November 2009 - 05:09 PM, said:

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from at all??

Yes. Thank you.

[billmc]

I don't really have much to contribute on Chapter 10.

I enjoyed the discussion on living in the present.

And I like the "going green" bent.

I wasn't too crazy on the whole male/female dissertation. Seemed forced to me.

And I have mixed feeling on Jesus saying that his life wasn't to be imitated (WWJD). On one hand, I appreciate that Young says that we are all unique and must live our own lives. God's not trying to make a whole bunch of little Jesuses running around. On the other hand, Jesus had alot to say about following him and being obedient to him and being "one" with him and God. So while I agree that we are all unique, I'm a little concerned that Young is simply taking the typical evangelical approach to Jesus' teachings which is: he didn't really expect anyone to obey what he taught, his only purpose was to die as a sin offering. But I appreciate what Young is saying about having freedom to follow Jesus.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

See, I have always had trouble with the idea of trying to imitate Jesus, because I am not in the same culture at all, and I'm not a man, and I'm not as closely tied to God.

I'm glad you encouraged me to go deeper with that paragraph, Bill. Do you think that Young is claiming there that people who try to independently act like Jesus without submitting to God are unable to really follow through? Maybe that it takes the full commitment of one's life to following God in order to be truly able to see with God's eyes? Maybe it's a condemnation of secular humanists or something...

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 01 November 2009 - 11:18 PM, said:

Do you think that Young is claiming there that people who try to independently act like Jesus without submitting to God are unable to really follow through?

I'm not sure, Janet. Young's Jesus makes a few good statements but doesn't elaborate much. I think (or hope) that what he is getting to is: What Would Jesus Have Me Do? I suspect it is the spirit of the thing.

Karen Armstrong tells of this pagan who goes to see a Jewish rabbi, Helial, and tells the rabbi, "If you can recite the whole Torah while standing on one leg, I will convert and become a Jew." Helial stands on one leg and says, "Love your neighbor as yourself, the rest is commentary." As you know, the Jews had something like 613 laws to obey in the Mosaic code. But Helial, as well as Jesus, boils it all down to the Golden Rule.

For me, I think this is what God desires of my own life, that I follow Jesus, not slavishly trying to obey every word that he said, but in submitting my life to God's will for the good of others. So it is not immitation in trying to do everything that Jesus did, but in putting the good of others before one's own good. Does that make sense? Tell me if it doesn't, because I'm still trying to work this all out.

This is where I think the theological notion of "Christ in you" comes into play. There is the historical Jesus, as much (or as little) as we can know about him. And he boils down to a life that is lived for the sake of others and even given in death for the sake of others. It is a life of self-sacrifice, not to appease an angry god, but to show what love and compassion really looks like. When we also live that kind of life, then we are said to be living the "Christ life". "Christ in us" is not being posessed by the spirit of the historical Jesus, it is the divine Life within us made manifest to others around us. So we don't immitate what Jesus did, instead we manifest the kind of Life that was at the center of who he was.

What do you think?

[billmc]

Okay, this is off-topic but Janet got me to thinking about Jesus and Christ this morning and I thought I would share my thoughts on this subject. Please don’t pick up stones until you have read the whole thing. Then, after reading all of it, you may feel it more appropriate to crucify me instead of stoning me.

Jesus and Christ

Most biblical scholars would agree that Jesus was, at the minimum, a young, itinerant, Jewish rabbi who sought to reform Judaism through his teachings and way of life. Many would agree that he performed healings and exorcisms, but conservative and liberal scholars would probably disagree as to the historicity of the miracles attributed to Jesus of Nazareth in the gospels. Regardless, he was crucified around 30 AD because he ticked off the wrong people in power with his message and was beginning to attract enough followers to form be a threat to the establishment.

But what are we to make of this Christ figure? Was it more than just Jesus’ last name?

The word “Christ” is a Greek translation of the old Hebrew word “Messiah” which simply means “anointed one.” Christ does not mean “God incarnate” or “miracle worker” or “lord” or “one who is raised from the dead.” It simply means that it is someone whom God has anointed with his spirit for a particular purpose. Judaism has many figures in the Hebrew scriptures who were “messiahs”, people anointed by God to accomplish a certain goal or to deliver a particular message.

But in modern times, the word “Christ” has become either Jesus’ last name, a swear word, or, in some cases, a description of mystical being “out there” that people go to in order to find what they need. I don’t find any of these usages to be satisfying to my own journey. I know that Christ was not Jesus’ last name and I don’t particularly like using sacred words as swear words. And I am particularly uncomfortable with the notion that Christ is some sort of resurrected, perhaps disembodied, Jesus of Nazareth with whom we can chat and become best buddies with. To me, although I know this goes against most of the claims of Christianity and Christians, Jesus is dead and gone. I don’t believe he heals people or helps football players score touchdowns. I don’t believe he intervenes in people’s lives to get them a good job or a decent parking place. I don’t believe he talks to people, giving them daily instructions for what they should do or telling them to send their money to a particular televangelist. To me, the Jesus that was the Christ is no more.

And yet, I still believe in the Christ…

What I mean is this: I believe that when we, as human beings, are anointed and empowered by God to live lives of compassion, we become, for others, the Christ. We become (or should become) “Christians”, people who are characterized, not by their beliefs, but by what they do. The “Spirit of Christ” that we have is not some kind of ghost of Jesus of Nazareth, but, rather, the same attitude of self-sacrifice and compassion that he preached and lived out. This is why, for me, the historical Jesus is still important; in him we see what a human life centered in compassion for God and others looks like. In him we see what someone who is a Christ (rather than THE Christ) looks like. And seeing this, it gives us clues as to what kind of people we should be if we are to wear the name “Christian.” Christianity is a strange religion. It’s adherents claim to be “Christians”, which means “little Christs”, while, at the same time, they claim to be sinners and admit that they are nothing like Jesus.

For me, being a Christ is when our humanity meets God’s divinity. Or perhaps put more simply, when God can be seen in the life of humans. That is the Christ life. That is what I believe the apostle Paul meant when he said, “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” God doesn’t want or need a whole bunch of little Jesuses running around. There was one Jesus of Nazareth as we know him through the gospels. He was sufficient for that day and time. But there should be many Christs. Our world needs people who are anointed by God to make a difference, to live lives of compassion and sacrifice for the sake of others.

When people ask me if I am a Christian, I don’t quite know how to respond. They are usually asking me if I meet their standard of a belief system i.e. do I believe this and do I believe that. And if I were to respond that I believe that I am called to be a Christ, Christians, of all people, would find my statement to be heretical. In our day, if you claimed to be a messiah or a Christ, you would automatically be lumped in with the likes of people like Jim Jones or David Koresh, not with the likes of Jesus of Nazareth. So I generally don’t tell people that I think God calls all of us to be Christs to the world around us. To me, it is more important that we, as Nike says, “just do it” and trust that as we live lives of compassion and sacrifice, Christ will be seen in us.

[JosephM]

billmc, on 02 November 2009 - 09:46 AM, said:

Okay, this is off-topic but Janet got me to thinking about Jesus and Christ this morning and I thought I would share my thoughts on this subject. Please don't pick up stones until you have read the whole thing. Then, after reading all of it, you may feel it more appropriate to crucify me instead of stoning me.

(snip)

Bill,
Nice post. That post surely wouldn't get you stoned or crucified here. Yet, Perhaps, there was a time when you would have done that to another if they wrote it?

Joseph

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

billmc, on 02 November 2009 - 05:22 AM, said:

I'm not sure, Janet. Young's Jesus makes a few good statements but doesn't elaborate much. I think (or hope) that what he is getting to is: What Would Jesus Have Me Do? I suspect it is the spirit of the thing.

Karen Armstrong tells of this pagan who goes to see a Jewish rabbi, Helial, and tells the rabbi, "If you can recite the whole Torah while standing on one leg, I will convert and become a Jew." Helial stands on one leg and says, "Love your neighbor as yourself, the rest is commentary." As you know, the Jews had something like 613 laws to obey in the Mosaic code. But Helial, as well as Jesus, boils it all down to the Golden Rule.

For me, I think this is what God desires of my own life, that I follow Jesus, not slavishly trying to obey every word that he said, but in submitting my life to God's will for the good of others. So it is not immitation in trying to do everything that Jesus did, but in putting the good of others before one's own good. Does that make sense? Tell me if it doesn't, because I'm still trying to work this all out.

This is where I think the theological notion of "Christ in you" comes into play. There is the historical Jesus, as much (or as little) as we can know about him. And he boils down to a life that is lived for the sake of others and even given in death for the sake of others. It is a life of self-sacrifice, not to appease an angry god, but to show what love and compassion really looks like. When we also live that kind of life, then we are said to be living the "Christ life". "Christ in us" is not being posessed by the spirit of the historical Jesus, it is the divine Life within us made manifest to others around us. So we don't immitate what Jesus did, instead we manifest the kind of Life that was at the center of who he was.

What do you think?

I think it lines up very much with my way of thinking, and that you have written it very well. I'm still thinking about your other post...

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

billmc, on 02 November 2009 - 07:46 AM, said:

And I am particularly uncomfortable with the notion that Christ is some sort of resurrected, perhaps disembodied, Jesus of Nazareth with whom we can chat and become best buddies with. To me, although I know this goes against most of the claims of Christianity and Christians, Jesus is dead and gone. I don’t believe he heals people or helps football players score touchdowns. I don’t believe he intervenes in people’s lives to get them a good job or a decent parking place. I don’t believe he talks to people, giving them daily instructions for what they should do or telling them to send their money to a particular televangelist. To me, the Jesus that was the Christ is no more.

And yet, I still believe in the Christ…



For me, being a Christ is when our humanity meets God’s divinity. Or perhaps put more simply, when God can be seen in the life of humans. That is the Christ life. That is what I believe the apostle Paul meant when he said, “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” God doesn’t want or need a whole bunch of little Jesuses running around. There was one Jesus of Nazareth as we know him through the gospels. He was sufficient for that day and time. But there should be many Christs. Our world needs people who are anointed by God to make a difference, to live lives of compassion and sacrifice for the sake of others.

Bill,
I definitely don't feel like stoning or crucifying you after this post. It is a thought-provoking assertion.

For me, the word "Christ" is too tied up in the idea of salvation. The apostle Paul did much to connect the two. Reading Paul is where we get the idea that believers are "in Christ", another term for "saved." So, I've actually backed off from using the term "Christ" too much in my life and my talking to people who are skeptics. I totally agree with you that we are annointed by God to make a compassionate difference in this world. To me, the term "Christ" is just too loaded, so I don't want to claim that title.

Also you've led me to consider how delusional it may seem nowadays to treat the risen Jesus as a personal friend, but I struggle for other language to express my relationship with Jesus. Jesus seems very much alive to me in some ways. I do talk to Jesus and feel that answers,situations, and desires are placed in my heart in response. I have felt led by the ongoing spirit of Jesus to take on projects that I would have never envisioned for myself (like joining an "evangelism" task force and driving a woman to her radiation treatments). I don't think Jesus gets me a good parking place, and I don't think Jesus saves me from everlasting torment in hell, but I do think that Jesus can free me from selfish/destructive patterns of behavior.

I think on the PC message boards we pretty much all agree that it is important to manifest Jesus' Face of Love to the downtrodden, disenfranchised, etc. I think we have each had unique ways of experiencing personal transformation because of our individual God relationships. What role do you see Jesus playing in making us individually more loving and less selfish? Can people reach a greater level of loving maturity with Jesus in their lives?

Total digression, but it's fun!

[billmc]

JosephM, on 02 November 2009 - 09:15 AM, said:

That post surely wouldn't get you stoned or crucified here. Yet, Perhaps, there was a time when you would have done that to another if they wrote it?

Yes. To my shame and ignorance, yes.

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on 02 November 2009 - 09:43 AM, said:

For me, the word "Christ" is too tied up in the idea of salvation.

I think you're right, Janet. As humans, we bring our own desires and interpretations to things. When the Jews of the first century thought of messiah, they thought of someone anointed by God to deliver them from the Romans, something Jesus did not do. They thought of someone to call fire down from heaven to destroy God's enemies, something Jesus refused to do. They thought of someone to cleanse the Temple (not of Jews but of Gentiles) and take the throne of Jerusalem as king of the world, something that, again, Jesus did not do. They ignored the visions of messiah as suffering servant as found in second Isaiah in favor of a conqueroring king messiah, which Jesus rejected. Side note: Dispensationalists tell us that ALL scripture must be fulfilled, so they set up future ages where Jesus comes back to fulfill these other previously-rejected interpretations of messiah. Today, as back then, you're right, the word "Christ" is loaded with all kinds of ideas about who Jesus is and what he does, salvation being chief among them.

Quote

Also you've led me to consider how delusional it may seem nowadays to treat the risen Jesus as a personal friend, but I struggle for other language to express my relationship with Jesus. Jesus seems very much alive to me in some ways. I do talk to Jesus and feel that answers,situations, and desires are placed in my heart in response. I have felt led by the ongoing spirit of Jesus to take on projects that I would have never envisioned for myself (like joining an "evangelism" task force and driving a woman to her radiation treatments). I don't think Jesus gets me a good parking place, and I don't think Jesus saves me from everlasting torment in hell, but I do think that Jesus can free me from selfish/destructive patterns of behavior.

I respect that, Janet, honestly I do. There are many, many people who say that they experience Jesus "personally" and I am certainly in no position to say their experiences are invalid or delusional. My post was just stating that I make no such claim. To my knowledge, Jesus doesn't "walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am his own" as the beloved song says. But many people feel that he does for them and who am I to say they're wrong? Each of the four gospel writers, as well as the apostle Paul, experienced Jesus somewhat differently. That is the amazing thing about him; he refuses to be nailed down to any one person's agenda.

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What role do you see Jesus playing in making us individually more loving and less selfish?

Well, I think the gospels give us good insight into how he lived a life of selfless love. This is why I disagree with the dispensationalists that Jesus' teachings were "only for the Jews."

But, at the same time, I think we see alot of "Christ in you" on this board being exercised almost everyday, don't you? My view is that we need both - both the historical Jesus and the Christs that we are to each other. The historical Jesus inspires us to like he was. The "Christ in us" or "those of us in Christ" or any of the other labels we use shows us how "alive" Jesus is in people today. Again, I'm not talking about "spiritual posession", just about people being part of God and Jesus' agenda.

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Can people reach a greater level of loving maturity with Jesus in their lives?

I certainly think so, especially if they stop seeing him as "Mr. Fixit" who works apart from them and more as an energy that empowers them to serve. What's your thoughts on this?

Again, I'm not trying to disparage anyone's experiences, ESPECIALLY if those experiences make people more Christ-like. I don't really know where the line is (if there is one) between "the living Christ" and the resurrected Jesus. I suspect our relationships with God involve alot of "room at the inn" for everyone to allow Jesus to be what they need him to be for them -- as long as it is not a self-serving and self-glorifying agenda. But due to my makeup, I relate better to Jesus as a historical figure than to him as some kind of person or angel or what-have-you that is external to me. To, Jesus was a person; Christ is the diffference we can all make to ourselves and our world.

This post has been edited by billmc: 02 November 2009 - 01:00 PM

[glintofpewter]

I could read your conversation several times, Bill and Janet. It is very rich.

There are several passages from your posts that ring true with me. These are the two that I like the best.

Janet

Quote

Maybe that it takes the full commitment of one's life to following God in order to be truly able to see with God's eyes?

Bill

Quote

This is why, for me, the historical Jesus is still important; in him we see what a human life centered in compassion for God and others looks like. In him we see what someone who is a Christ (rather than THE Christ) looks like.

Bill, This is a new and exciting idea for me.


Janet

Quote

What role do you see Jesus playing in making us individually more loving and less selfish? Can people reach a greater level of loving maturity with Jesus in their lives?

Maybe there are distorted responses to your question but
perhaps "Love your neighbor as your self" was enough to get us thinking about what it is to live together as a community. Over many years we have found better ways to talk about relating and interacting together. Perhaps Jesus modeled such ideas as active listening or keeping boundaries, but the writers of the Gospels didn't have the vocabulary to point out such teachings. It took us many years to develop the vocabulary and understanding for these disciplines. So I see Jesus' model and teaching as the reason we keep seeking better ways of behaving toward each other, and a vocabulary so we can talk about it.

The one thing about living with/like/as Jesus/Christ is that if one only imitates then we would not learn that it isn't enough to feed 5 thousand one time or heal one or two or three people one at a time. We have to continually find new ways to challenge the structures of society and government which are unjust and without mercy. For example,the first step in the development of child labor laws was to prove that a child was at least as valuable as a horse and so must be treated as well as a horse. Maybe that is apocryphal but it is only within the last century or so that such changes have been made with respect to children. And, of course, there are many other struggles to carry on. Following Jesus, being like Jesus, etc. Starts with Jesus' model and words but has to continue to develop.

Ecstatic experiences

There are a variety of spiritual experiences, usually very subjective, from the wonder of nature, the purity of math, or ecstatic epiphanies. Although the wonder of nature or the purity of math will spark more or less emotional responses they are always present and available. In my experience the source of ecstatic experiences is not always present. Ecstatic experiences are like a fire and gradually cool down over time and gradually lose their power to motivate, guide and inspire. I make mine part of my testament which I sometimes review if I feel lost.

Sometime ecstatic experiences are associated with certain mental disorders, extreme fasting, etc., so one must be careful how the experience is held and what conclusions to draw from it. There are texts and experiences in historical record that may be the result of such experiences. We find them inspiring and challenging.

'til the next time I'm at a computer.
Dutch

[billmc]

I enjoyed your last post a great deal, Dutch, it's pregnant with thoughts and ideas to pursue. So I hope that as long as the three of us in this book discussion don't mind a pitstop now and then, we are free to discuss sideline topics.

What you say about language being a difficult medium through which to describe experiences, ecstatic and otherwise, rings true with me. Heartfelt experiences seem to lend themselves more to poetry than to prose. So I tend to view alot of the "Jesus language" in the Bible as more poetry than doctrinal dissertation. It's like if I tell my wife that she is the most beautiful woman in the world. She knows that, because of our experiences together, I am biased. She knows that it is poetry. And she would have a problem with me if I decided to start comparing her to every other woman in the world to prove that my statement is literally true. So when someone tells me that Jesus is their best friend and that they talked to him this morning, I am not going to ask them what he looks like and if they understood his accent.

I also like what you said about our need/desire to continually finding new ways to challenge the things in this world that stand against the kingdom of God. While I enjoy the holiday seasons and looking back to the birth of Jesus, I often wonder what it would look like if Christians entertained the notion that God wants to become just as "incarnate" in us today as we believe he was in Jesus 2000 years ago. Perhaps Christmas (literally "meeting Christ") could be a time or an impetus for us to believe and live out "Christ in us" today. Yes, according to the Bible the Light came into the world. But Jesus was emphatic that we are now the Lights of the world. The Bible makes it quite clear that we are the "body of Christ" which means, to me, that the incarnation should go on each and every day.

As to ecstatic experiences, I've had few of them. And I think you describe them well when you say that they don't last. They have, as you say, a certain reminiscing value to them, but God calls us to continually be present and to move into the future. This is why, for me, I don't rely on ecstatic experiences to motivate me to be all I should be. The feelings and the emotions are wonderful, don't get me wrong. But they are like making love; the experience is over far too quickly. But being "in love" lasts.

In this last chapter, at least for me, we find alot of "love poetry." The conservative will read it and say, "See, Jesus still walks on water. This proves conclusively that he is God." The extreme liberal will read it and say, "Nope, it just doesn't happen. People just can't do this sort of thing." But the poet and lover will read it and say, "See, true love can never ultimately be drowned out. It will get wet in order to help the drowning, but it raises people up, never puts them down. It offers a hand to hold, not condemnation."

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Both of you, I am loving this conversation!! I am definitely reading "The Shack" as a lover/poet. It is like a fable to me. I wish that I could go away for a weekend and spend it so closely with God and see what God presents to me. I don't think it will happen.

Should we move on to Ch. 10? I'm happy that Young addresses the issue of God's justice in this book.

Janet

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

BTW, Jesus didn't look like anything. He is pure spirit. His face is the Face of Love. I only get feelings in my heart sometimes after sharing my thoughts with Jesus. So I didn't really converse with Him