[Sfariqueen]

This is my first post here, other than my introduction, and I wish it were a more uplifting topic. There is something that has been forfront in my mind and Id like to hear what others think of it. I not only left the church and Christianity for a very long time because of more conservatives practices, but because in my life God sooo often is totally silent and simply seemingly not there. I would pray for guidance and only silence followed. My path has been very very rocky and Im wondering others thoughts. What do you make of long long long long silences when you pray for guidance? Dealing with more conservative people, Id be told either I wasnt listening or not praying hard enough or there was some "unconfessed sin in my life"
so God was blocking blessings. Grrrrrrr. None of this fit.

So here in a progressive group, does anyone have a take other than what the conservatives put out there? Does anyone else experience this and how do you deal with it? Honestly it kind of makes me nuts. K not kind of it Does!


Thanks
Kris

This post has been edited by Sfariqueen: 27 August 2009 - 05:50 AM

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

GREAT question!!! I hope people weigh in on this one :-)

I, too, have searched for guidance and felt alone. There is a good (rockin') Barlow Girl song, called "Never Alone" that addresses the same issue, so we're not unique in that situation. That song suggests faith in knowing we are not alone, even if it feels that way.

Sometimes I have prayed and had a "responsive" feeling in my heart where I thought God lead me to do something. Sometimes I have prayed for energy and strength, and I have felt a corresponding burst. (those times are nice!) I remember complaining to my husband once that I had prayed for strength and didn't feel like God had sent me any. He said, "I don't think God works that way -- God's not some kind of vending machine where you can put a prayer in and get energy out." I TOTALLY disagree that God would be withholding help because of an unconfessed sin or your prayer not being somehow good enough!! I think maybe there is a growing sense of God's presence at all times as people focus on following Jesus' teachings and glorifying God in their life as much as possible. Others refer to that as "finding the God within."

The presence/guidance of God can be found in multiple places. Did you seek guidance through talking to people that God might use in your life? Did you search scriptures or religious tradition?

These are not answers, just more questions. I admit I struggle with the same topic. Thanks again for bringing it up!

Janet

[Mike]

Hi Kris, hope things are well with you. I think you'll find that the progressive Christians here represent a very eclectic range of theological beliefs, many of which go far beyond the boundaries of traditional or orthodox Christian thinking.

The fact that God always seems silent was a major problem for me when I was a Christian of a more fundamentalist persuasion. It is probably one of the chief reasons I decided fundamentalism wasn't for me. In the bible, so it appears, God is always interacting with people, but then we modern people, thousands of years later, are expected to go on nothing but a few ancient testimonies, and ofttimes against all of what we now ‘know’ about the world?

Problems like these led me to read, among other things, more about contemplative Christianity. I think it was Thomas Keating, a contemporary Catholic mystic, who said “Silence is God's first language, everything else is a translation.” I can't really explain this intimation in a systematic, logical way. The way I see it, God is an ineffable mystery that cannot be solved in principle. ‘Silence’ is at the heart of reality. I often pray with this in mind, I converse with Silence, I allow Silence to speak through me. Silence, as it turns out, is also quite reliable as it's always there, pregnant with possibility, waiting to speak in a small, still voice.

Ha! This post is probably the least logically sensible of all my posts here thus far.

[billmc]

And another couple of thoughts/experiences to add to the mix:

Back about 20 years ago, my wife and I desperately wanted to have children. Because of the kind of church we were involved with at the time, we made sure that our petition before God to bless us with kids was in the church bulletin as well as being mentioned almost every Sunday in Sunday school. My wife had some female problems that, according to the doctors, would make it difficult if not impossible for her to get pregnant. After about 3 years, we were overjoyed to discover that we were pregnant. Ever so thankful to God for intervening on our behalf and answering our prayers, we began decorating for our new bundle of joy. But my wife unfortunately miscarried. We didn’t understand why God would answer our prayers and then allow us to lose the baby, but we kept on trying and praying for another child.

About 9 months later, we were pregnant again. God had again heard us and answered our prayers. But despite our best efforts to be “more careful” about this new pregnancy, my wife miscarried again. And we struggled with why God would answer our prayers and then allow the miscarriage. Was he answering our prayers or not? Was he intervening or not? I didn’t make any sense for him to answer our prayers and then take our child so that he could “have another little angel up in heaven.” We felt alone, abandoned.

To this day, I don’t know why things happened the way they did. Thankfully, we kept on trying and eventually did have two children, but not without going through the trauma and doubt caused by the miscarriages.

A 20th century theologian that I admire, John A.T. Robinson, says this: “In a world filled with God, we have to learn to live without God.” Sounds like a paradox, doesn’t it? What John means is, yes, God is always with us. But this is not the God who actively listens to our prayers to answer or withhold, nor is it the God who watches us to see if we act righteously or sin in order to reward or punish us. This is the GOD that is behind the rescuing God of theism. This is the GOD who wants us to mature and learn to live without expecting to always feel GOD’s presence or expect GOD’s intervention.

I don’t find this notion of GOD very comforting. I like the idea of a God who hears my prayers and answers them, a God who continually lets me know that he is always right there with me, no matter what I may be going through. But the truth of the matter, IMO, is that GOD just doesn’t work that way. The GOD that Robinson describes wants us to know that GOD is within us, but that we have to learn to draw from the depths of this GOD instead of beseeching the God-in-heaven to do something. This kind of GOD is reflected in Jesus’ cry, “My GOD, my GOD, why have you forsaken me?” GOD had not forsaken him, but he felt that way. This is not the Father-God who rescued Jesus from the cross, but the GOD that, despite his circumstances, Jesus could still entrust his spirit to. This is not the Father-God who holds your hand so that you can safely cross the street. Instead, this is the GOD who gives you the courage to cross it by yourself and to bear the responsibility involved. This is not the Father-God who treats us like little children, but the GOD who wants us to mature and face life with all of its insecurities and dangers. This is not the Father-God who miraculously answers prayers for cups of water. This is the GOD-within that says that if something should be done, I should be part of the doing. So this is the GOD that calls me out of my selfishness to selflessness. This is the GOD who wants to be incarnate in, of all people, me.

I struggle with this “new” view of GOD. But while it doesn’t offer me the security blanket that I long for, it does give me the courage to be "Jesus with skin on" and to be a more responsible person in the world.

[grampawombat]

Some of my comments on the "comfort or courage" thread may be applicable here. Suppose the God that can do all the things we would like God to do doesn't exist yet, but will in the distant future? Maybe it is just that people's timing is off.

[JosephM]

Sfariqueen, on 27 August 2009 - 06:45 AM, said:

This is my first post here, other than my introduction, and I wish it were a more uplifting topic. There is something that has been forfront in my mind and Id like to hear what others think of it. I not only left the church and Christianity for a very long time because of more conservatives practices, but because in my life God sooo often is totally silent and simply seemingly not there. I would pray for guidance and only silence followed. My path has been very very rocky and Im wondering others thoughts. What do you make of long long long long silences when you pray for guidance? Dealing with more conservative people, Id be told either I wasnt listening or not praying hard enough or there was some "unconfessed sin in my life"
so God was blocking blessings. Grrrrrrr. None of this fit.

So here in a progressive group, does anyone have a take other than what the conservatives put out there? Does anyone else experience this and how do you deal with it? Honestly it kind of makes me nuts. K not kind of it Does!


Thanks
Kris

Hello Kris,

I moved your thread to here in the progressive area since it is addressed to those considered progressives and is more than a TCPC Cafe topic. Also deleted the duplicate topic posting.
JosephM (as TCPC Moderator/Admin)

[JosephM]

Sfariqueen, on 27 August 2009 - 06:45 AM, said:

This is my first post here, other than my introduction, and I wish it were a more uplifting topic. There is something that has been forfront in my mind and Id like to hear what others think of it. I not only left the church and Christianity for a very long time because of more conservatives practices, but because in my life God sooo often is totally silent and simply seemingly not there. I would pray for guidance and only silence followed. My path has been very very rocky and Im wondering others thoughts. What do you make of long long long long silences when you pray for guidance? Dealing with more conservative people, Id be told either I wasnt listening or not praying hard enough or there was some "unconfessed sin in my life"
so God was blocking blessings. Grrrrrrr. None of this fit.

So here in a progressive group, does anyone have a take other than what the conservatives put out there? Does anyone else experience this and how do you deal with it? Honestly it kind of makes me nuts. K not kind of it Does!


Thanks
Kris

Dear Kris,

It seems to me, what you have posted is not at all unusual. First of all, in my view and perception, there is nothing wrong with you or lacking in you. There is sunshine and darkness in most every human life. It is the nature of the creature and its evolution. Some experience what they perceive to be more of one than another. Each human life is a unique creation of possibilities and events that happen and are most often beyond the conscious comprehension of the individual. Some try to explain it in a way that makes sense to them as if the cause is in this earthly realm but fail to really understand that we live in a world of effects rather than causes. What most see as causes are just preconditions to an event.

It seems to me the world we see is a projection of a realm that cannot be seen. What is seen is obviously temporary and not eternal therefor not something to be taken too serious or overly taken in by. That is because it is created. It is form and all form is a projection or reflection of an inner realm of consciousness. It is this inner realm that is formless and eternal. The closest description I can speak of it is in abstract words such as silence and empty space. Out of this silence and empty space comes all things temporary. In a sense God is this formless silence and empty space out of which all things come.

In my experience, long periods of silence are more in connection with God than hearing voices. Your being here in this space with us tells me that you are ready for real transformation. Transformation is not so much about answers to questions or new information as it is about bringing forth a shift in consciousness which is in a sense to awaken to the source of your being which is already one with God. One can play with concepts in their mind endlessly but concepts are not what awakening is all about. (Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and Christ shall give thee life was not written for the literal dead but for the sake of the living) It seems to me good to listen to that silence for God knows what you have need of before you even ask. In that silence will come something greater than concepts or words. What is greater is love and a peace that surpasses all understanding. This is the transformation I perceive that you seek and it is before you and will be realized. I have no doubt of this for you.

You have already broken free of the bonds of fundamentalism which is a great step that some but not all of us must go through. In patience and silence you will find your strength rather than confusion. You are on a good path. I perceive it is good you put the past behind you and rest in the trust that God (however you may conceive God), who has started this work in you is well able to finish it and nothing in the physical shall be able to separate you from that love.

Just one response to your post to consider,
Love in Christ,
Joseph (as Member)

[Kyler Rush]

Hey Kris,

I too have had a struggle with God's "silence". I prayed for God to stop something very bad that was happening in my life, but it only seemed to get worse every time I prayed. It seemed that God was just not going to answer me. But when I spoke to a pastor (at a church I was visiting) about my problem, he unexpectedly took matters into his own hands. He made some phone calls and my problem went away. With his silence, God was telling me to wait. To look for help not just in him but in other people. Granted the pastor could have chosen a better way to help me end my problem, but God used him to answer my prayer.
I like bilmc's quote from John A. T. Robinson "In a world filled with God, we have to learn how to live without God." Years ago I would have brushed it off as some duffas just mouthing off. Now because of recent circumstances, I have come to understand God in several different ways. I was raised to understand God, as the God that answers prayers on a whim, a God you could order around like the genie in Aladan's lamp (only with unlimited wishes). But through watching a movie, which I forget the name of, I came to understand God as a God who, when we ask for something, gives us the opportunity to get it ourselves. Like Janet's husband said, "God's not like some vending machine where you can put a prayer in and get energy out." There's no remote control to God. Do you know how easy it would be, and how lazy we'd get, if God were a genie or something like that? God wouldn't be God anymore, but a slave. We'd never use any virtues we might have asked for, and we'd never have to do anything cuz "God can do it all for us." God CAN do anything, even if it means making us get up off our lazy butts to get or do it ourselves and ask for help when we need it.
With his silence, God is helping us to mature, to grow, and have faith in Him. Sometimes the silence hurts. I was hurt by it myself. But without that painful silence, I wouldn't have spoken to the pastor who answered my prayer.
With his silence, God it telling us to listen. Without his silence, I would never have heard him through my boyfriend, with whom I discus everything about God. My boyfriend taught me to see God as a God who's presence permeates everything, a God whom I can lean on in times of trouble.
Now YOU have introduced me to a God who is silent so that I can hear him. God in his silence, is loud enough for me.
Yet another piece of the puzzle known as GOD.

Kyler.

P.S. I hope this post helps you a bit. If you want clarification on anything I've said, please pm me and or read some of my other posts.

[Adi Gibb]

G'Day Kris,

Firstly I would like to agree with all the above posts that point out that you are not alone and should not feel in any way diminished by this issue. Indeed, I think people of faith have been dealing with this issue since time began, perhaps leading our ancestors in the Hebrew Bible to write:

1 Kings 19:11-13 (King James Version)

"11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?"

God has been a still small voice for many of us who believe in the limitless divine. Yet we always hold out for that Road to Damascus moment don't we, I know I often do. Alain de Botton, when exploring what happiness is, looks back to a Roman philosopher, Seneca, who believed the key to this was to lower our expectations. For some reason we, as humans, expect perfection each time we wake up and walk out the door. When it doesn't happen, which is frequently, we feel flat, let down, diminshed. I think I am like that with prayer too. As simple as I may make a prayer I still kind of hope that a hand will, monty python style, come down from heaven and do exactly as I asked in a perfect way. But perhaps this is an unreasonable expectation. I wrote this on another post, but I think it apt here. I wrote this in response to a post by Kyler, who was expressing a similar sentiment to you:

I personally find praying to God, which I usually call the limtless divine, WAY too daunting, and see Jesus, who I tend to call Yeshua, as a bridge if you like, an ordinary Joe, just like us, but pretty darned special, who can pass on my messages for me. So I pray to Yeshua, and that is less daunting. I also think you could start doing things like centering prayers, which I know Tony Camplolo advocates. DOn't ask for anything, nothing at all, maybe just breathe deeply, acknowledge your own existence, the existence of the Limitless Divine, and thank it for the blessings in your life. As you feel more confident, maybe you begin asking for guidance or whatever. I also know of a movement called Christian Meditation, exactly designed for those who feel they need a different way to communicate with God. You simply breathe and recite the word Maranatha as four syllables, MA-RA-NA-THA, while breathing out, which means something like 'Come Lord' in Aramaic.

Finally, I heard a great expression at a presentation recently by a Pagan author. He was saying how he didn't understand why some people of faith pray and then sit back and do nothing afterwards. He believes we have to 'meet the prayer', we have to do what we can, here in this realm, to make our desired results a reality. With that effort will be placed the power of the answered prayer, which will ensure success. So that is something that I personally resonate with. Meet the prayer, see oneself as a partner with Yeshua, rather than an applicant for favours.

Anyway, that is my take. I know it can be hard when you feel you are met by silence. At the moment, here in Australia, Spring is coming on strong, and there is a powerful resurrection of bloom happening. When I see these exquisite metaphors for the christian resurrection, I'll be honest Kris, it feels like God is singing!

Adi

[determined soul]

Most prayer it seems is externally focused on a situation, issue, event, etc…

What I have found when praying is that God doesn’t change the circumstance, but provides us with a higher perspective of problem at hand. With a higher perspective we can see the problem for what it is and the effect of it on us diminishes….

You may not hear a voice, or see a sign, but something you cannot explain has lightened your steps. What bothered you yesterday may still be present today, but the effect on you is ‘different’.

Why should God ‘move’ the obstacle for you only to hit another around the corner? Why not prepare you to deal with life’s circumstances? This is the way I believe that God works… He changes our outlook, not the circumstances around us, so we become the answer to our problem.

Be sure that God hears your sincere, selfless prayers. Pray for others and you will experience what you wish for them.
God wants to heal us, provide His Love to us and for us to use this love to heal our pain. Be persistent, patient and determined when you pray. This is a gradual change but a change indeed.

Love your brother, a determind soul

[glintofpewter]

I try to stay in community when God is silent.

Kris, I am not sure the rest of this is relevant to your situation -
Sitting still and listening has helped also. Even when I hear nothing. Sometimes nothing is what I want to hear. To be centered, at peace. Sometimes when I pray seeking or striving for an end I get agitated. My need is usually peace to accept what is happening without judgment and knowing when to act.

Dutch

[soma]

Quote

Kris, I am not sure the rest of this is relevant to your situation -
Sitting still and listening has helped also. Even when I hear nothing. Sometimes nothing is what I want to hear. To be centered, at peace. Sometimes when I pray seeking or striving for an end I get agitated. My need is usually peace to accept what is happening without judgment and knowing when to act.

Dutch

Jesus said, "Let Thy will be done.” When he asked the Father that His will be done, he was asking to be made a channel for His energy that the Father knew best what was good for his life. Ordinary people pray to have their desires gratified, something obtained or something accomplished, but in true love there is no place for I and mine. Kris it seems you have reached a shift in consciousness to a higher awareness in silence as Joseph mentioned. You are blessed to be able to witness the being in the silence of your being, witnessing the being in human being. Many people are not able to experience the eternal gentleness of God because they are so active. Peace can't be defended and it is useless to attack in the name of Peace. It is experienced in silence beyond mental agitation. Maybe we should rename our missiles called Peace Makers. It seems we don't have to do anything for peace just become aware of it inside our being. As a witness in consciousness it seems we can view peace always at work in the Divinity within, beckoning us with eternal gentleness. "Lord let they will be done."

Kris it seems you are praying with a pure heart so the things that are needed will come without even asking. Therefore, there is no need for you to run after cravings or any reason to subdue others in order to achieve the material things that your ego desires. It seems the source of your truth will provide for your needs and look after your welfare in the silence of your being. Peace in silence as Dutch explained.