[rivanna]

Chapter 5 comes across as quite different in the two translations, to my mind. Mitchell’s note on it seems to extend the meaning further: “Since people are in constant flux, the master understands that any moment they are capable of the most astonishing spiritual transformations. Why pin them motionless with a judgment of good or bad?”

Perhaps it resonates with Shakespeare’s line from Hamlet, “there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

I noticed in a bookstore the other day that Stephen Mitchell recently published The Second Book of the Tao (Feb. 2009), adapted from the work of Lao-tzu’s disciple Chuang-tzu and Confucius’s grandson Tzussu, along with much commentary.

[soma]

Chapter 5
The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.

To continue with the analogy the temperature that creates the conditions to make the ice is nothing but the Holy Ghost as I see it. It is the power that works and clashes in nature for the development of understanding. The Holy Ghost, which is constantly moving and spreading, is a part of God. It is sometimes looked on as a symbol for further development and is also seen at times in a negative way or as the wings of the devil. It has a dual aspect as said earlier in the Tao and the possibility of being seen either as good or bad. The dual aspect cannot be separated because it is like a paper with two sides that are one and the same. Good cannot exist without evil because they complement each other. Liberation and repression, sickness and health, poverty and wealth, heaven and hell, good and bad, happiness and misery, peace and panic appear to be opposites, but they are only the result of opposing forces, the forces that lead us to the one power or God. I feel these forces teach us how to live and how to think so we can be happy in unity.

I feel God the Father is like the light in a room, we can be reading spiritual books or forging checks, the light doesn't care because it only witnesses the actions. Our soul is the life of our spirit within us (the liquid part in the ice cup), and it gives us life good or bad because without our soul we could neither read the Bible nor forge checks. It is our inner companion on a journey through the different layers of the mind going through the different experiences that are momentary and imaginary. It is our center the Tao says to hold onto and our connection to the ocean of Pure Consciousness. It seems that communion with the Father is experienced when one goes to the inner church of our soul because extroversion only distracts and makes one insecure in duality and action-reaction. The meaningless external chitchat only keeps one in the mind and separates us from rejoicing in the inner communion with all so one needs to hold onto the center like the Tao says.

The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it,
the less you understand.

There seems to be a law in the universe where if a vacuum is created another force seeks to fill that void so a person who gives receives. The forces seem to act endlessly until there is no action and reaction. A Sufi saying is that God shows himself to seekers, but not to the one who seeks. I think many people go to church, read the bible and hear the word of God. They are seeking God and acting,but they do not feel Him/Her. They should not despair, but be patient and persistent in their practice because in their seeking their consciousness will open and they will feel spiritually with what they now only understand with their minds. In a moment of non-action it seems we come to the understanding that we are not human doers, but human beings. It seems the only way to possess God is to be possessed by Him, let it be, just be, being because He/She is too big for our minds to grasp. We pick a flower and it dies, grab a flame with your fingers and it burns out so it seems we must let God through pure consciousness take hold of us, not the other way around. To me the soul is the medium where God takes hold of us because it is neutral, a creative medium that knows neither good nor bad, it is only a witness. It does not reject anything because it receives all ideas given to it. It is subjective and does not analyze, segregate or deny, but only accepts. It seems the soul is the medium through which pure consciousness acts and is the universal medium where other subjective minds and my subjective mind are united because the soul is where pure consciousness, God, the collective unconscious reacts with me.

Hold on to the center.

[glintofpewter]

Soma,

I appreciate your words.

Quote

I feel God the Father is like the light in a room, we can be reading spiritual books or forging checks, the light doesn't care because
it only witnesses the actions ... To me the soul is the medium where God takes hold of us because it is neutral, a creative medium that knows neither good nor bad, it is only a witness.

An interesting metaphor I will be thinking about. Are we ever aware that there is "a witness?"

Dutch

[glintofpewter]

Joseph,

I thought of you when I read the following:

"The terse and mystical language of many of the verses serves as a marker, a hint suggesting a much larger meaning--and this meaning cannot be understood through the words of the text alone, but through one's own contemplation, spiritual practice, and by opening one's heart to the "doorway of all mysteries."
from commentary on Tao Te Ching by Jonathan Star

Dutch

[glintofpewter]

I have to share this rich expansive translation of Chapter 6 by Jonathan Star. I promise I won't do this often, but this takes my breath away.

Endlessly creating
Endlessly pulsating
The Spirit of the Valley never dies
She is called the Hidden Creator

Although She becomes the whole universe her immaculate purity is never lost
Although She assumes countless forms her true identity remains intact
Whatever we see or don't see
Whatever exists or doesn't exist
Is nothing but the creation of this Supreme Power

Tao is limitless, unborn, eternal--It can only be reached though the Hidden Creator
She is the very face of the Absolute
The gate to the source of all things eternal

Listen to her voice; hear it echo through creation
Without fail, She reveals her presence
Without fail, She brings us to our own perfection

Dutch

[JosephM]

Thanks Dutch,

It was like .... poetry....

Joseph

[soma]

Krishanumurti says: "Remain conscious of your thought process."

Difficult, but the few moments we do we witness I think we witness the Tao, and the creator, I guess that is why they call it spiritual practice.

[glintofpewter]

FYI

Now that you have read the "poem" - some words.

Jonathan Star acknowledges that he went beyond the original text in exploring the idea of Mother Creator. He used readings from other Oriental traditions to add to the image of the Great Mother that is the Tao.


Dutch

[glintofpewter]

Chapter 6

The Tao is called the Great Mother:
empty yet inexhaustible,


Great Mother ~ Sophia, Holy Spirit, Birthing, Creating all. "Empty but inexhaustible" suggests not a one time creative act but an on-going process - becoming.

it gives birth to infinite worlds.

All that is created reflects, points toward, to the Great Mother/Tao. The immanent as creation is the beginning for our understanding of the transcendent.

It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want.

Intriguing
assuming that "it" is the Great Mother birthing, what would I give birth to? This creating, becoming energy I have in me is inexhaustible so I am always birthing, becoming, not one time, not one call, not one occupation but always through every gate including the gate that opens to the transcendent where "I am Dutch" has no meaning.

That's what I saw today.

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 31 July 2009 - 08:31 PM, said:

Chapter 6

The Tao is called the Great Mother:
empty yet inexhaustible,


Great Mother ~ Sophia, Holy Spirit, Birthing, Creating all. "Empty but inexhaustible" suggests not a one time creative act but an on-going process - becoming.

it gives birth to infinite worlds.

All that is created reflects, points toward, to the Great Mother/Tao. The immanent as creation is the beginning for our understanding of the transcendent.

It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want.

Dutch

Dutch thanks, we are created in the Tao, God or pure consciousness and are sustained at every moment by the Tao. In the Tao, pure consciousness God is always present in the depths of our souls so our created life depends entirely upon the uncreated life of the Tao, God or the consciousness present within our minds. By immersing our minds in the Tao we begin to live and see pure consciousness within our souls as the uncreated image of God.

I like the line that says that the act of creation is a continuous process where new things are being created continuously all the time. The weaving together of all things and their undoing in the universe cannot happen without a method. This method I would say is the natural law observed by the scientists. It preserves order in the centrifugal and centripetal movements of creation and implies movement and the mutability of all the visible structures in nature. In nature there exist recurring patterns of clash and cohesion from the atom to the galaxies and beyond. There also exist a harmony and a similarity of structure between these levels of materiality. It is an inspiration to see the separating and combining of the elements to bring forth nature, such is the order of natural law in the cosmos where all things move together in one common flow called the Tao.

[JosephM]

Chapter 7
The Tao is infinite, eternal.
Why is it eternal?
It was never born;
thus it can never die.
Why is it infinite?
It has no desires for itself;
thus it is present for all beings.

The Master stays behind;
that is why she is ahead.
She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.
Because she has let go of herself,
she is perfectly fulfilled.

Just a few comments on Chapter 7 above and what they speak to me.....

Much of the orthodox teachings I grew up with present a God with desire. It now is my experience and understanding that God is complete, desireless and in need of nothing. It is that which is not eternal that is full of desires and God is present within them and used as they want as God is the source of all.

The Master (teacher) lets go of self (ego) and God is uncovered. This detaches self from all things and Oneness is then seen. To me, this is the emerging of the 'new creature in Christ' as a process in the concept of time. It is a dying (or letting go of) daily to the that which is temporary and finite so that only that which is eternal shines through. Then the completeness is experienced and desires for the self are let go and fulfillment is realized. Actions then come out of the Love that is present for others which are not separate but One.

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Chapter 7

She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.

These are the most challenging lines for me. Simply, my judgments about the person in front of me and the distractions of other thoughts keep me from being present and open and fully experiencing and being in relationship with the person in front of me.

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 03 August 2009 - 12:11 PM, said:

Chapter 7
She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.

I feel as Progressive Christians when we dwell in the consciousness of God as the infinite Power then no human, devil or evil can do us harm. God is the one Power, the All-powerful and the only Power that we acknowledge, nothing less than Omnipresence. I feel when a Christian comes to understand this fact and the interconnectedness of all things, that person will know love; we’ll know the Tao; and we’ll know peace. This takes detachment from duality, the devil and material existence, but it shelters us from health problems, money worries, guilt and other failures that can cause us to be depressed. The ark of detachment shields us from life’s storms and its waves of destruction as we live in duality. The proof is by diving into God the Father, the Tao and then diving into dualism, materialism and comparing the difference. Therefore; it has to be spiritually discerned.

Psalm 4:7
You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound.

[glintofpewter]

soma,

Quote

The ark of detachment shields us from life’s storms and its waves of destruction as we live in duality.

This sentence has an ironic or paradoxical quality but I like it.

Dutch

[soma]

Dutch, You discern the meaning behind the meaning not with your mind, but your Spirit so you appreciate the logic in the illogical. That is why I love Lao Tzu because he expresses the Tao by going beyond logic there by making us discern the message with the Spirit.

"The myriad creatures in the world are born from Something, and Something from Nothing. —Lao Tzu (Taoist)

Some other great quotes that do the same thing.

The hidden God, the innermost Being of Divinity so to speak has neither qualities nor attributes. —Gershom Scholem (Jewish)

Body surfing in big waves is blissful if one becomes one with the wave and rides it to shore. The problem is getting out to catch the wave. People battle the force of the water and keep getting pushed back and under until one finds that diving deep in the water the force of the wave has no effect. I feel it is the same with the mind in duality, which is in individuality because it can batter us, but if we dive deep within we can become one, divine and blissful in the unity all waves. Our mind perceives with the mundane senses so we see what is 'outside ourselves'. We view life from a perspective that we are separate from everything. I feel this causes our suffering that everything is separate from us. But in truth, the separate nature of our existence is a misunderstanding because everything in the universe (one verse) is interconnected and interdependent.

Back to some great quotes.

It is within our intellects, souls and bodies, in heaven, on earth, and whilst remaining the same in Itself, It is at once in, around and above the world, super-celestial, super-essential, a sun, a star, fire, water, spirit, dew, cloud, stone, rock, all that is; yet It is nothing. —Dionysius the Areopagite (Christian)

The light by which the soul is illumined, in order that it may see and truly understand everything...is God himself. —St. Augustine (Christian)

That Oneness is on the other side of descriptions and states. Nothing but duality enters speech's playing-field. —Rumi (Muslim)

Words and sentences are produced by the law of causation and are mutually conditioning—they cannot express highest Reality. —The Lankavatara Sutra (Buddhist)

[glintofpewter]

soma,

Quote

but if we dive deep within we can become one, divine and blissful in the unity all waves.

What I remember is that if I was being tumbled by the waves and sought deeper water I was disoriented at first in the deeper water. That is another truth that can be seen in the metaphor, I think.

Just talking about someplace I haven't seen too much.

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 08 August 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

soma,



What I remember is that if I was being tumbled by the waves and sought deeper water I was disoriented at first in the deeper water. That is another truth that can be seen in the metaphor, I think.

Just talking about someplace I haven't seen too much.

Dutch

Dutch, Lao Tzu never said the word God in all he wrote. He knew God was beyond all words. He knew God. Dutch from your post I feel you dive deep and come to the surface with a post that makes us want to dive again.

[glintofpewter]

Soma,

Thanks,

Dutch

[glintofpewter]

Can we respond to Chapters 8 & 9 together? They both involve personal behavior.

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 09 August 2009 - 10:03 AM, said:

Can we respond to Chapters 8 & 9 together? They both involve personal behavior.
Dutch

CHAPTER 8
The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.

CHAPTER9
Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity.

...........................................................................................

To me these chapters talk about a balance between the soul and nature. I think that is where intuition comes in because it is beyond intelligence and is the medium for communication with the soul. I have noticed that many scientist have studied and researched intensely, but then in an instant of relaxation the theory is formed recombining all the concepts and thoughts to form an amazing break through. It seems intuition teams up with the intellect to balance the divine and physical to make the world a better place.

We have free will and intuition, and our experiences help us to use them wisely if we are guided by spiritual resources. The more choices we make, even though some will be wrong, the more we learn. We need to be proactive and not just sit around like puppets waiting to be told what to do. Our intuition guides us with ingenuity and helps us make things happen to make the world a better place if we learn to trust and follow it. We have heard the saying that God helps those that help themselves. The more spiritually mature we become, the better we’ll be able to balance our soul with nature to trust in divine destiny and do our part to help it manifest.

Intuition the voice of the nonphysical balances well with the intellect, the voice of the physical world. Therefore, I would encourage spiritual aspirants to learn about the different spiritual traditions and incorporate the wisdom practices they are attracted to into their daily lives. Wisdom practices would be spiritual practices that calm the mind because the memory of God comes to a still mind. We study the wisdom of other souls there by trusting and learning to listen to our intuition, which communicates the wisdom of our own soul. Every situation or action taken with the proper balance and perspective gives the opportunity for wisdom, healing and spiritual growth.