[soma]

Quote

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. I was wondering why I do my spiritual practice. Why do I keep trying to open the door when the walls enclosing the room are an illusion? My small self keeps bumping into those walls and is trying to convince me that those walls are real. A glimpse outside, a peek through the portal shows me that those walls are an illusion. I think as progressive Christians we are into the direct perception, the viewing of things as they are................The seeing in the moment. Being in the here and now. I think this is what makes a progressive Christian. While others are building structures, institutions, and walls with faith, we are trying to peer through them, around them or beyond them. The Tao and silence are always there even when there is noise.

[rivanna]

The ending of this chapter reminds me of Goethe’s line, “Just trust yourself and you’ll know how to live.” One other thought on Chapter 23--it focuses on the idea that nothing in the universe lasts, except the Tao. Paul in Corinthians affirms that love never ends; Jesus said his words would never pass away. Perhaps they are all equivalent in meaning.

The Tao seems not only helpful but necessary as a complement to the bible – especially since quoting from scripture seems so liable to be misconstrued as literalism, even among progressives.

This website has much commentary, a forum, blog etc--

http://www.centertao...e-ching/dc-lau/

A sample: “One important difference between the Taoist and Western worldviews (Jewish, Christian, Kabbalah, Islam, Hindu) is their inherent moral undertone. They all rest on the proposition that we as humans are uniquely capable of free choice. Choice, free will is an illusion manifested in thought. Yet, each generation buys into its cultural beliefs or solutions. I'm of the view that as long as we hold out for these idealistic solutions nothing will change. Every solution we innovate creates at least one more problem. The Taoist view seeks to reverse this tendency, and conform completely to nature. The truth is, nature embodies both unity and division….”

Accepting this view might bring a certain contentment if not hope and inspiration. Somewhere between the Taoist and Christian perspectives there is a balance that feels more fully human than either one by itself.

[soma]

rivanna, I like the way you incorporate many religious cultures to this discussion. I also think of the Tao as a cooperative with different entities.

In the Christian culture I see the Tao as God the Father or since they express the Tao as a female I could say God the Mother. Jesus is my tangent or point linking my physical and mental to God the Almighty or pure consciousness.

In my last analogy I was in a room with four walls and a door partially open. In that I could say Jesus is holding the door open for me and I see beautiful light of pure consciousness shinning through it, but when I go to walk through the portal Jesus is in the way crucified in the doorway, but I can still see the light. When I get close, Jesus says intellectually you think the four walls are an illusions so you must go through them. I look at those walls built with time that makes my communion with God in the future, not in the here and now. Jesus says to go through the wall one must serve and savor the people, animals and ecosystem around the wall that is why you are here. When I do those things, I start to see light shinning through the wall and there are not any cracks. I built that wall so I can go through it and I am sure the cooperative will help.

This post has been edited by soma: 10 November 2009 - 07:05 PM

[JosephM]

Chapter 24 now open for comments....

He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand form.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.
He who tries to shine
dims his own light.
He who defines himself
can't know who he really is.
He who has power over others
can't empower himself.
He who clings to his work
will create nothing that endures.

If you want to accord with the Tao,
just do your job, then let go.

[tariki]

JosephM, on 12 November 2009 - 02:36 AM, said:

Chapter 24 now open for comments....

He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand form.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.
He who tries to shine
dims his own light.
He who defines himself
can't know who he really is.
He who has power over others
can't empower himself.
He who clings to his work
will create nothing that endures.

If you want to accord with the Tao,
just do your job, then let go.

Various thoughts suggest themselves, jiggle around in my mind. The first was a comment someone once made on another forum, about how our entire life can become just a succession of anticipations and epitaphs and we never actually "rest" in the moment. Another was a joke I remember where a Buddhist sits in the lotus position and is heard saying......"I'd read so much about it beforehand that now I'm actually enlightened its a bit of a disappointment." I think we can "define" ourselves, convince ourselves we are what we would like to be,take pride in the labels we adorn ourselves with............all coming at the price of losing ourselves entirely. (Which suggests at this moment the words of Pema Chodron who spoke of "loving kindness" as meaning that we could still be crazy after all these years There seems so much mercy and grace in those words, loving kindness beginning with ourselves) Anyway, its good to know just who we are, without pretence, that - however mixed up - we exist within the grace of infinite compassion. It does seem to be paradoxical that its total acceptance that apparently initiates transformation.

[JosephM]

It reminds me that all is vanity. To raise oneself is actually to lower another which is to in a spiritual sense lower oneself. To make oneself shine is to dim another which in a spiritual sense is to dim oneself. etc.

One can't know who one is by defining oneself because ones true self is beyond definition.

I would agree with tariki that total acceptance initiates transformation.

Also to me, there is no difference in the enlightened and unenlightened except that the latter limits himself to form. While the latter limits truth to the measure of the world, the former sees truth as the formless substratum of the world. Yes, perhaps a bit of a disappointment to most as in your joke, tariki. Perhaps this temporary life here is AS my Dad spoke on his death bed, it is seen as one big cosmic joke. No offence meant to anyone.

Joseph

[rivanna]

Good quote from Pema Chodron. The tone of honesty/modesty is inspiring.

Stanza 24 seems fairly straightforward – repeating themes from past chapters, on the need for humility, restraint, avoiding excess and extremes. That last part is a challenge for artistic types, balancing common sense with creative expression, but I feel that studying the Tao has helped me the past few months.

One of my art friends heard a saying recently, possibly from Eckhard Tolle - “warm your heart and cool your emotions.” It seems in keeping with the Tao – an ideal of detachment from negative energy while staying receptive and compassionate, if I interpret it correctly.

“he who stands on tiptoe doesn’t stand firm” -- Lao Tzu’s visual images are perfect illustrations for the concept.

Mitchell’s note on line 9: “the other is the self” -- if we really understand this, we are able to act wisely. A simple but profound insight, corresponding to the teachings of Jesus. The gospel says there is no us and them.

[soma]

It seems the purpose of the Tao, religion, ritual and symbolism is to give meaning to life beyond the mentally and physically dominated world. As the mind explores these things it is led to thoughts that lie beyond the grasp of reason. It seems if these practices are done in a meaningless way, that person is wasting time because the person who knows the significance of what he is doing, the Tao can overcome the tendencies and make real the purpose of one’s life. I think regardless of the suffering one has experienced one can achieve a new state of mind and be born again, when the focus is changed. I would venture to say that this new state of mind is living in the present and is a projection of living in eternity. The ego exist and has pride in the past and fear for the future so letting go of the future and the past lets the ego drop away too. I feel in the Tao, in true reality, it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. The proof is in our experience by experiment and not theory. When one concentrates only on what is happening in the present, the moment is pure awareness without any desire. It seems to live in the past or the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is a habit to live in this unreality, but as one discards and releases all ideas contrary to the present, the experience seems to achieve full measure in the here and now. This reality is total and whole, not the past or future because we are not looking over our shoulder at the past or standing on our toes to see what’s ahead in the future. I like the way Jesus, Chondron, Tolle and the Tao say the same thing in one sentence or phrase.

[JosephM]

It seems to me to be nicely put by your words, Soma.

[tariki]

rivanna, on 16 November 2009 - 07:04 PM, said:

Mitchell’s note on line 9: “the other is the self” -- if we really understand this, we are able to act wisely. A simple but profound insight, corresponding to the teachings of Jesus. The gospel says there is no us and them.

It really is amazing how memory works! Often I can't remember the name of someone half an hour after an introduction, yet rivanna's note here jogged my mind to a short sentence in an essay on Nirvana by Thomas Merton, contained in his book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite".

The only salvation, as Christ said, is found in losing oneself - that is by opening oneself to the other as another self.

This also suggests to me another passage from a Buddhist scripture where the Buddha is depicted as going down into the dark and murky depths of one of the many Buddhist hells, holding his lamp aloft. By the light of the Buddha's lamp those who are dwelling there are heard to say....."Ah, there are others here besides myself!"

Perhaps another paradox, that the "unity of all things" is revealed when we truly see the "other".

[JosephM]

Chapter 25 now open for comments......

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

[tariki]

Must admit that this particular verse suggests only more quotes and stories in my mind! One of these days I'll have something original to say, but then it does say that only the Tao follows itself!

Getting back to the quotes.........a sentence from the earliest Hindu scriptues.......Thou art formless - your only form is our knowledge of you.

And a story.........about some little Jewish guy - apparently the Jewish equivalent of a saint - who travelled up and down the land. One day he was so inspired when he saw the long line of worshippers following his carriage that he got out and followed it himself.

The word "unchanging" does seem to jar , particularly as it seems to be linked to "perfect". Perhaps an unchanging state of creativity? Words and straw!!

[soma]

tariki I like your stories and memories. They trigger my stories and memories.

If the Tao doesn't follow anything then everything is within the Tao. There is no past or future because time is within the Tao also so past, present and future are happening at the same time within the Tao, the ever present moment.

[rivanna]

Chapter 25 didn’t strike me as going beyond previous ones, but I found interesting stuff at the D.C. Lau website. Also, was amused to see that Mitchell adds one note, on the four powers line – “Ho hum.”

From CenterTao’s comments on this stanza –

“The Chinese word for nature expresses a broader view, in sharp contrast to how nature is often viewed in the West. Nature is much more profound than anything humans did or didn’t do. Our ideal of self leaves us with a deep sense of disconnection and insignificance, which is why we have religion in the first place.”

I’ve sensed all along that the Tao refers to quite a different definition of nature, so I was glad to see this expressed. However, to me it seems like the other way around-- nature is what makes us feel negligible, while religion or faith is where we seek to feel eternally accepted and significant.

“The more important it is to change my circumstances, the more insane life becomes. When I get pushed into this chaos, it helps to stop for a moment and attempt to return to the silent void within myself.” Not sure how this ties is with the current chapter, but I agree.

This post has been edited by rivanna: 18 November 2009 - 12:11 PM

[JosephM]

To me this chapter re-enforces the impossibility of existence without God and to ever really be separate from him except in our thinking and then even the thinking could not happen without God who is in and through (the substratum of) all things without exception. To me it is meaningless to ask the question, where is God? To me, the question assumes there is a location and location assumes time and form . Yes, the Tao, formless, eternally present , in and out and through all things.

Joseph

[tariki]

soma, on 18 November 2009 - 04:11 PM, said:

tariki I like your stories and memories. They trigger my stories and memories.

soma,

When I reflect upon the various connections my mind makes with the words of others, on how the many stories and quotes pop into my mind, it helps with understanding. Either as illuminating the ideas of others or by helping to define them by my own memories being just slightly off centre. Whatever, often I seem to find more in a few words than in an entire book. Maybe because the words often find me unawares. I need to be crept up on at times!