[JosephM]

Dutch,

Its not too much of a stretch if its meaningful to you.

Chapter 3
If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

To me, this is wisdom because it seems creating an overly positive response also creates an equally negative response to maintain a universal balance. Therefor it is good to do all things in moderation only. This speaks to me of everything being interrelated. Exalting one in effect debases another. Similar to Jesus teaching not to lay up treasures for yourselves where moth and dust doth corrupt.... Paul is recorded teaching us to be temperate in all things.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

It seems to be saying that a wise ruler keeps his people's bellies full but ambitions dampened. In effect curbing desires and keeping life simple. It sounds similar to Buddhism and can be related to Jesus teachings of "Taking no thought for tomorrow or what you shall drink or wear ....... again laying not treasures up for yourselves ....... giving up personal desires for the kingdom of heavens sake....

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.

To me this again says practice doing the will of God rather than your own doing and everything will be done to completion.

Just my take, How about yours.

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Thanks Joseph.

Dutch

[Mike]

I enjoyed those observations Joseph.

Quote

If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

This calls to mind the fact that what we value affects how we behave. If we value something wrongly, then our actions will become perverse. Joseph mentioned treasure, and this verse immediately sprang to mind: “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (Matt 6:21)

Quote

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
...
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Socrates comes to mind here. Not biblical, but Western at least.

This post has been edited by Mike: 22 July 2009 - 08:48 PM

[JosephM]

Chapter 4
The Tao is like a well
used but never used up
It is like the eternal void
filled with infinite possibilities

It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it
It is older than God.

When I first read these versus I drew a blank because of the abstractness of its translation but after contemplating a bit here is what it speaks to me...

A well is constantly replenished with water. As water is taken out new water quickly replaces the old to maintain the same level. The Tao (the Way or Christ) is like this. When we receive of it, it is not used up. As we take from it , we receive more in its place. It is like a living well that Jesus spoke of that produces living water. (Life) This way of life is as a void, seemingly empty as there is nothing to be seen of it by the eyes, but out of it comes visible life in all it infinitesimal choices and possibilities. In that it can not be seen or is itself formless, it is hidden to the eyes but present always. Who or How it was birth is unknown but it is older than the concept of God.

This is what it seems to say to me, What does it say to you?

Joseph

[Mike]

Quote

The Tao is like a well
used but never used up
It is like the eternal void
filled with infinite possibilities

It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it
It is older than God.

That is a great connection you drew between this and the well springing to eternal life spoken of by Jesus, Joseph.
I gain a sense that no quantity of words, no methodology, no means of apprehension may exhaust what God is. We may draw our strength and our life and our principles and philosophies from him, and may write many volumes, but nothing has been added to or taken away from him. All systems and principles are incomplete and incapable of defining his intrinsic completeness. God dwells in light (or.. darkness) unapproachable, hid from our eyes.

This post has been edited by Mike: 24 July 2009 - 10:44 PM

[JosephM]

Mike, on 24 July 2009 - 11:43 PM, said:

(snip)
I gain a sense that no quantity of words, no methodology, no means of apprehension may exhaust what God is. We may draw our strength and our life and our principles and philosophies from him, and may write many volumes, but nothing has been added to or taken away from him. All systems and principles are incomplete and incapable of defining his intrinsic completeness. God dwells in light (or.. darkness) unapproachable, hid from our eyes.

Wonderfully expressed Mike. Very much like your chosen words.

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

There is a variety of translations. I am not sure of the genealogy of each one but there are some translators who include a middle piece that is missing in the translation we are using.

In its simplest form the middle section of Chapter 4 reads:

It blunts sharpness,
Resolves tangles;
It tempers light,
Subdues turmoil.

Stan Rosenthal's translation expands the line "its blunts sharpness" to the following:

When tempered beyond its natural state,
the finest blade will lose its edge.
Even the hardest tempered sword,
against water, is of no avail,
and will shatter if struck against a rock.

A good metaphor for judgment honed to a fine edge. "Against water..." it is of no use in the spiritual realm. " Against rock..." Some things are whole and unyielding to intellectual dissection.

Something I need to keep in mind.

Dutch

[glintofpewter]

Another site recommended this translation for beginners

Rosenthal explains his translation methods

"Notes on Translation"

The Translation

Dutch

[JosephM]

Interesting.....
Thanks for the links Dutch,
Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Quote

Another site recommended this translation for beginners

I did not mean to imply that anyone but myself is a bveginner.

Dutch

[soma]

This is a great discussion. I hope you don't mind my entering late.

Chapter 1
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

Yahweh translates literally as 'I am whatever I shall be' or 'I am that which I am'. This is not a name. It seems to be the reply that God gave Moses to denote he has no name. It shows similar to the Tao how awesome and mysterious an always transcendent God is. God or the Tao has no name and no form which the human mind can understand. The Almighty, Lord, God the Father are not names they are titles. I see God the Father as unqualified consciousness or pure consciousness without qualities.

Chapter 2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

I see the Word as the offspring of God from which everything is born. It is qualified consciousness where pure consciousness takes on more and more vibrations or qualities. When the first vibration is allowed to impose on the pure consciousness, it gets quality and becomes aware of itself. I would say pure consciousness didn't act because action creates vibrations or qualities so The Father pure consciousness allowed the Holy Spirit to act on pure consciousness and create qualities in it.

And God said "Let there be light and there was light." "Let light be made" Allow vibrations in the unqualified consciousness.

God is infinite, He cannot be two, we cannot have two infinites, He is the only one, but because the infinite transcends all dualism, it is qualified enough to include dualism so the external world can exist.

Limitations or qualities in the world of duality can manifest in two ways, positive or negative, long or short ect. We label things and actions in the world of duality as good or bad, but they are just judgments about different situations in our lives. It seems every person needs to achieve a balance in this world between positive and negative, good and evil, and also between pleasure and pain, then one gets a glimpse of pure consciousness.

Newtons's third law of motion. III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Jesus "Whatever you sow you shall reap." Einstein E=Mc^ Energy is conserved.
This seems to show that every action creates a reaction. The master therefore acts without action, Jesus "Lord let thy will be done" Act through me so the master does not get the reaction. The master didn't do it. Pure consciousness flowed through the master because the ego was removed so the ego didn't act or react. Pure consciousness is beyond vibration so the master acts without action.

Chapter 3
Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.

Pure consciousness is unqualified without vibration. Jesus said, “Whatever you sow you shall reap.” He is saying that our actions are far-reaching that they affect our personal happiness. Our spiritual maturity is directly related to our commitment to behave in a responsible manner. Christ said, "I and the Father are one." He was declaring the truth with all the sincerity of his experience where his mind was no longer bound by the feelings, emotions, thoughts, impulses and instincts of the world because he remained only in the reality of the all pervading consciousness. He was beyond action and reaction.

Chapter 4
The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities.

In reality it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the past or future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. The proof is in our experience by experiment and not theory. When one concentrates only on what is happening in the present, the moment is pure awareness without any desire or action. To live in the past or for the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is the habit of the ego to live in this unreality, but as we discard and release all ideas contrary to the present, our experience achieves full measure in the here and now; infinite possibilities. This reality is total and whole, not the past or future because we are not looking over our shoulder or standing on our toes to see what’s ahead.

As we become detached and unshaken by life's stresses and strains, we grow to identify ourselves with our eternal, knowledgeable, blissful soul, united with pure consciousness, an eternal void instead of with our finite body, ego and mind.

I do not know if this makes sense, but I love the abstract and try to make sense of what is beyond the senses.

[JosephM]

Great Post Soma,

It is never to late for such things. Thanks for your well written interpretation. We can move on to the next Chapter as soon as you see a gap in responses.

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

soma, on 26 July 2009 - 01:57 PM, said:

In reality it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the past or future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. . . . To live in the past or for the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is the habit of the ego to live in this unreality, but as we discard and release all ideas contrary to the present, our experience achieves full measure in the here and now; infinite possibilities.

soma, I appreciated your contribution in the resurrection topic. This time, I find the above statement relevant to my life.

If it doesn't sidetrack us too much I have a question.

God the Father is pure consciousness, without qualities.
The Word, as the offspring of God, is the source of everything that is born.
God allowed vibrations in the unqualified consciousness. Is this "unqualified consciousness" the Word?
Is the Word pure consciousness in which the Holy Spirit creates qualities/vibrations?

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 26 July 2009 - 11:57 PM, said:

God the Father is pure consciousness, without qualities.
The Word, as the offspring of God, is the source of everything that is born.
God allowed vibrations in the unqualified consciousness. Is this "unqualified consciousness" the Word?
Is the Word pure consciousness in which the Holy Spirit creates qualities/vibrations?

Dutch

Thanks for the question. I feel God is everything because there was nothing before God so I imagine God as a great ocean of pure consciousness to help me understand such an abstract image. The ocean represents everything as an expression of oneness in the pictorial language of nature. Imagine all living things of the universe emerging out of an ocean of pure consciousness, being maintained in this ocean and finally dissolving into it in the end. Imagine this ocean of pure consciousness with some parts frozen. The liquid part represents pure consciousness, which is not manifested materially, it is unqualified without qualities and the icebergs represent pure consciousness as it is manifested in the universe, this is pure consciousness with qualities thus we have creation. The ocean and the icebergs are both made of water so they both contain pure consciousness. We are able to live because this pure consciousness lives within us, we are able to move because a universal energy flows through us, and we are also able to think because there is an infinite consciousness thinking through us. This water or pure consciousness is an infinite ocean, but in it is the finite water or ice; thus, we have the word infinite, (in-the-finite). Now to the question, the word is the first vibration so the beginning of qualities. The water is starting to freeze. It is similar to the HOly Ghost throwing a rock in the water and the vibration expands in concentric circles outward in the cycle of action and reaction.

In the beginning of the Gospel of St. John it says,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not."
The Word is the offspring of God from which everything is born. It is qualified consciousness where pure consciousness takes on more and more vibrations or qualities. Please ask again if I didn't explain well.

[glintofpewter]

soma,

Yes it helped a lot. I am almost there. Just one more question for now. Are we icebergs in a some sense in this metaphor?

Dutch

[soma]

glintofpewter, on 27 July 2009 - 04:15 PM, said:

soma,

Yes it helped a lot. I am almost there. Just one more question for now. Are we icebergs in a some sense in this metaphor?

Dutch

That is a great question. I would say yes because we are in creation and duality, but the icebergs are like cups where the cup is filled with liquid water. When the facade melts away, and we realize we are not the body or the mind then a transformation takes place and people are no longer attracted to a sensual material concept of life where they see themselves as a body and a mind alone in the world. They realize that they are a soul connected to God’s creation where the liquid water, (their soul) is connected to all living things is an integral part of a whole. It doesn't matter if we go from the outside in or the inside out, we are all connected in pure consciousness and we are all one in God the Father. I like the phrase "I use to think I was a body with a soul, but now I know I am a soul with a body.

[glintofpewter]

Thanks soma,

If I have more questions I will PM you.

Back to the Way
Dutch

[JosephM]

Chapter 5
The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.

The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it,
the less you understand.

Hold on to the center.

Some thoughts I had concerning these versus...

I am aware that the Bible as exists gives the impression that God takes sides but these first two versus indicate otherwise and fit more in with my experience of life and God. We do reap what we sow but in my experience the production of what we sow whether it be the appearance of what we perceive as good or evil comes from the same potential source or substrate and that substrate is God. Indeed the OT is even quoted as saying in Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. " It is my current understanding that God is the potential by which these things are created but that in a sense God is not a partaker of either. IE: God is Love, therefore in God is no hate. hate is merely the self created absence of love. God is Peace / Stillness , the absence of peace in the created is mental stress / anxiety / conflict

In my experience of God, all are loved equally. There are no favorites even though the Bible may indicate in places otherwise. Therefore, in my view, God takes no sides and all created things are loved equally but we as humans do still reap what we sow and from that it gives the appearance that sides or favorites are taken yet in my experience that is not so. It is just the reaping of exactly what we create.

The power of God comes from that which is empty or void of form but it is unlimited in potential. The more that that power is used to create, the more it produces. The more that one uses that power to give, the more one receives. To me giving and receiving are one and the same. When water is used in a well, it produces more. The more that it gives out, the more that it produces. God's power is like this.

The more you say of God, the more of a concept you make of God. The more concepts you have, the less you really understand because concepts are only pointers and attempts at communicating that which is beyond verbal communications. In talking too much about God, we focus more on the pointer rather than experiencing the presence firsthand.

Hold on to the center of your being.

Just my take on these versus as relates to my experience to consider. What is your perspective on what they say?

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Joseph, You ideas always challenge me.

Quote

The more concepts you have, the less you really understand because concepts are only pointers and attempts at communicating that which is beyond verbal communications.

I need to read a variety of translations; I don't hear what is meant without hearing a variety of voices. Other wise I hear only my own.

Chapter 5
Anther translation titles this section "Without Intention." This helps me to understand better what is being said.

The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.

Yes, in my understanding Jakob Boehme's God and Whitehead's "primordial nature" of God (My understanding of Whitehead is less certain.) what we call good and evil - this dichotomy does not exist in creation - both good and evil come from the becoming that is creation.

The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.

I like the above translation, the one that is from our suggested text, because it makes sense when Jesus is substituted for "she" - "Jesus accepts both saints and sinners." However Jesus did ask that sinners go and sin no more. That seems to not be what Lao-tzu is saying.

The translation that resonates most with me is the following as a substitution for the above quote:

"The wise . . . regard people like sacrificial objects [straw dogs]."

When the spontaneity, the holy moment, the rituals of the wise, the Master, are finished, every thing, thought, feeling, experience of the senses which were part of the holy moment are burned, let go of, destroyed, of no use, no existence. The Master is ever empty and, therefore, open to the next moment of spontaneity. The Tao, the Way, is never ceasing in replacing that which is burned, in bringing about holy moments. The Breath of the Spirit becoming creation is without end.

At least that's what I can make sense of.

I am bothered by the thought that being "without intent" might mean being "amoral and indifferent" from another translation. I am not sure if that is what Lao-tzu meant.

What I can relate to is a variation on the meaning of living with detachment. Although the following does not mean the same as the Tao text it seems to be related and it is an understanding that I can relate to and a healthy goal I can move toward. It is from an online article, Life Dancing by Phillip Moffitt on the Life Balance Website:

"The result of living in this manner [not judging your life by the outcome of your preferences] is a strong sense of inner peace and spontaneity that allows you to better experience the good things in your life and makes the difficult experiences more bearable and meaningful.

To practice non-clinging does not mean forsaking what you value; that would be indifference. Instead, it means practicing non-attachment to outcome. There is a subtle distinction between indifference and non-attachment ... If you are indifferent, you have no value base; you literally don't care how life unfolds. This is cynicism disguised as "cool" or karmic apathy. Non-attachment means that you act from your values but are not fixated on the outcome."

http://www.lifebalan...e_Dancing.shtml

Dutch

This post has been edited by glintofpewter: 28 July 2009 - 12:07 AM

[JosephM]

Dutch said:

Joseph, You ideas always challenge me

Hi Dutch,

I don't know in fact what Lao-Tzu meant when he wrote those words nor even if he was really the person who wrote them. This mind has been taught concerning spiritual things to assume very little. It merely reads what is written in abstract and when an impasse is reached, surrenders understanding to allow that which is in me but beyond mind to speak to me on whatever level I am able to receive. Reading philosophy or a number of translations is for me, unfruitful as one can be persuaded intellectually by any of them presented in what seems as a logical and analytical presentation. My trust is surrendered to my source and I am persuaded that even if I should stumble and fall in my attempt that that source which sustains me as a creature is well able to make me stand. I am always at the mercy seat of God.

To me understanding is not the same as intellectual sense. Understanding goes far deeper than words or concepts. It is a form of oneness with that which is both knower and known without separation or parts. I have just made a concept out of it with words in my last sentence though I recognize that the words are not the same thing. To me, to be challenged is to be lost in thought or thinking. To me the answer/understanding is always beyond the concept of thought.

Just something to note or consider,

Joseph