[tariki]

Thank you soma and mike for the various quotes and explanations. It certainly aids my own mind to read and reflect upon the variety of words that seek to express the unexpressable! It brings home how the word is not the thing, the "explanation" not the thing explained, seems somehow to bring it to the false self/ego the multitude of tricks it can play to bring "light" to itself. There is a beautiful little "parable of the kingdom" from St Marks gospel that I often read and refer back to that captures the pathless path......So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; and should sleep and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediatetly he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

It seems to be a fact that in some sense we do "plant the seed" in our seeking and "desire" for salvation/enlightenment. Often it is the ego doing so in its own quest for glory, unaware at the time of the pitfalls, spiritual by-passing and traps that ensnare it. We look back and "knoweth not how" such poor planting has yielded such fruit! For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself....one of the most beautiful verses from any text I know. When harvest time comes it always does so with a sense of grace, wonder. One of the most austere forms of the Buddhist faith, Theravada, advocates a steep path of meditation, designed to see through the self and "gain" nirvana. Yet when one monk/bhikku spoke of the "moment" of "enlightenment" he spoke of effort falling away, having reached the end of its scope. Pondering upon the "scope" of effort has been a companion of mine as I've walked the Pure Land path.

I was just reading through a little more of Thomas Merton, this time an essay on "Nirvana" and his words seem apt here. Clear and precise and capturing the ideas involved.....

Buddhism refuses to countenance any self-cultivation or beautification of the soul. It ruthlessly exposes any desire of enlightenment or of salvation that seeks merely the glorification of the ego and the satisfaction of its desires in a transcendent realm. It is not that this is "wrong" or "immoral" but that it is simply impossible. Ego-desire can never culminate in happiness, fulfilment and peace, because it is a fracture which cuts us off from the ground of reality in which truth and peace are found. As long as the ego seeks to "grasp" or "contain" that ground as an objective content of awareness, it will be frustrated and broken.

Merton says later that Nirvana is found in the midst of the world around us, and truth is not somewhere else. Its this insight, gleaned from so many different sources scattered through the pages of so many texts that has answered my own wish (desire!?) never to sacrifice or betray THIS world for the sake of some imagined "other" (which seems to be the implication of so much "religion", however deeply disguised)

Well, enough for now.

This post has been edited by tariki: 22 October 2009 - 06:01 AM

[Mike]

Well said Tariki. The idea that our desire for enlightenment constitutes the very wall blocking us from it is probably the most difficult religious teaching I can think of. It can seem overwhelming in a way, but perhaps that is the point...the ego can do nothing to transcend itself.

On another note, Soma's post jarred my memory a bit and Augustine's famous quote on time came to mind:

"What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."

Replace 'time' with 'reality' and you have a very Taoist statement, don't you think?

Peace to you,
Mike

[soma]

This matrix we are in is so interesting to figure out. You guys are right on. It makes old age exciting and fun. I hope young people get a contact high from each of you because I think most are not as interested in such matters.

Oscar Wilde says, "I am not young enough to know everything."

I started searching in vain in my twenties, but I did find the mistake in non-identity.

[rivanna]

Mitchell’s note on the ‘before time and space’ line – “Today means boundless and inexhaustible eternity. Months and years and all periods of time are concepts of men, who gauge everything by number; but the true name of eternity is Today.”

I just finished reading a book by Deepak Chopra, The Third Jesus (2008), which focuses on Jesus as teacher of enlightenment and embodiment of God consciousness. The author intreprets bible passages with a combination of Christian/Gnostic and Buddhist/Taoist perspectives. A sample that might apply to chapter 21: “When you operate out of a belief that the real world out there is pushing against you, your mental input manifests as obstacles, resistance and struggle. But if you operate from the belief that you are the source and the world is secondary, then events will move smoothly, with time and room to spare.” Somehow phrasing it like this makes me realize how deeply challenging and radical the kingdom of God idea really is.

Also like this quote -- “The measure of enlightenment is how comfortable you feel with your own contradictions.”

[JosephM]

Great discussion. Nothing to add here.

Chapter 22 now open for comments .....

If you want to become whole,
let yourself be partial.
If you want to become straight,
let yourself be crooked.
If you want to become full,
let yourself be empty.
If you want to be reborn,
let yourself die.
If you want to be given everything,
give everything up.

The Master, by residing in the Tao,
sets an example for all beings.
Because he doesn't display himself,
people can see his light.
Because he has nothing to prove,
people can trust his words.
Because he doesn't know who he is,
people recognize themselves in him.
Because he has no goad in mind,
everything he does succeeds.

When the ancient Masters said,
"If you want to be given everything,
give everything up,"
they weren't using empty phrases.
Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself

[rivanna]

The online version of Chapter 22 has a typo – in the book it’s goal, not goad.

Mitchell’s note on because he doesn’t know who he is “From the standpoint of personality, he knows very well who he is; that is what allows him to use his personality for people’s benefit, rather than be used by it. But from the standpoint of his true self, there is nowhere to stand and no self to know. He doesn’t know; he just is.”

Only in being lived by the Tao “This is what Paul of Tarsus meant by Not I but Christ in me. Or, in a more light hearted vein, the little boy who, when his mother got annoyed and said Stop sneezing, answered I’m not sneezing -- it’s sneezing me!”

Mitchell’s version starts out with “if you want to become whole let yourself be partial.”
(His note about this line is, “unless you accept yourself, you can’t let go of yourself.”)
Other translations put this part at the end-- to compare a few-

Jane English-- Be really whole, and all things will come to you
Lin Yutang – To yield is to be preserved whole
John McDonald-- If you want to become whole then first let yourself be broken
Peter Merel -– Accept, and you become whole
David Lindauer-- That which is flexible becomes whole
Sanderson Beck-- True wholeness comes from turning within
Tolbert McCarroll -- True wholeness is achieved by blending with life
Tormand Byrn-- To remain whole, seem twisted (?)

A lot of this chapter reminds me of the Beatitudes, also the idea of dying to be reborn, losing one’s life to find it.

On one hand, the speaker says the Taoist has “no goal in mind” – on the other hand, seems like wholeness is the goal, in this chapter at least.

This post has been edited by rivanna: 28 October 2009 - 02:10 PM

[soma]

Rivanna, Your post triggered a thought on wholeness. Wholeness or holiness can be achieved with a watchful mind and the knowledge that everything is united, if old fears, doubts and prejudices wear away to make room for new ideas and new understanding. New means being renewed constantly in the present.

Looking upon a broader horizon across all the experiences that are limited and unpleasant we can see the dazzling light of a new dawn where everything is unified. Our motions within and without resolve themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when we focus on simple unity and have become acquainted with God's pure consciousness that is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, we enter into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because we realize that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. We become multisensory, no longer using only five senses.

We do not create this expanding wholeness because it is a divine idea, but we can become aware of this divine Reality that has existed since before the beginning of time by opening up and accepting it, when it creates a wonderful new good in our lives.

The inward reality is linked with the inward reality of the whole universe if we let go of our small reality. In Christ consciousness there is a place in the mind that merges with the Mind of God and draws strength and inspiration from it, when we stop grasping. Therefore, Christ said, "I and the Father are one." The words, "I and the Father are one" can be interpreted to mean that I, the individual ego does not exist. The Father is everything so nothing has existence except God's pure consciousness; God is all there is; and I am a nonentity.

One doesn't just unite with gross matter as if eating the food we love but one's every potential becomes activated in Christ consciousness, and the whole man or woman is born again in the consciousness united with everything. I feel this is how God enters our human reality, and we become whole or holy.

The world in itself has no reality at all because it is in perpetual change without much meaning or consistency. The objects and things existing in it are separated in time and space and are changing from one moment to the next. Therefore, the microcosm apart from the macrocosm is nothing but when it knows the macrocosm, it is reality itself, constant and full of being. The feeling that we fell from God's pure consciousness and lost bliss in the Garden of Eden is due to the separation from our internal existence. I feel this has caused the present era of confusion where everything is divided, not centered, and separated from the whole or God's pure consciousness. This can be related to the story of Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden or the unit consciousness separating from God's pure consciousness. No need to worry though because everyone will be delivered from this separation. As the inner light unfolds, it delivers the outer life from bondage because we really never left.

I think the tree of knowledge of good and evil puzzled Adam, and he lost the spiritual connection with the whole. Adam saw everything through the veil of his individual ego so he saw things menacing him and separate from God because the balance of the universe became blurred. After leaving the Garden of Eden and the state of pure consciousness, Adam tried to regain his original state by creating his own balance. This creation of individual consciousness I feel is not reality because it is a state of isolation on the physical level, not a working together in harmony with the whole. The unit consciousness focused outwardly on the physical level I would say turns out to be the first phase of evolution. The second phase of evolution is a conscious development or rising above the external, physical world a kind of involution. I feel this can marry science and spirituality so they are both correct about evolution.

The mind is very remarkable how it creates and maintains the illusion of ego and hides our real self. The Tao snaps us back beyond the mind away from the disconnected and the dissociated to become unified with the whole. I feel these stories are about the universe vibrating a message of one body, one organic whole that separates and again unites in consciousness.

[tariki]

rivanna, I liked reading through and reflecting upon the various readings of the first couple of lines of the current chapter. Thanks. Somewhat amusingly I never spotted the typo re "goad" and goal"..........as I read it was the thought of "evangelisation" that came to mind, and its various manifestations, from the "still small voice" to the rather loud "tellymen"! The idea of a "goad" seemed to fit in well, or rather it being missing from the "way" of the Tao master! By living in the now, moment by moment, without idea of self, he/she demonstrates the "way" without didactic intent.

"What are the teachings of a whole lifetime?" "An appropriate statement"

Perhaps why it is the letters of Thomas Merton that I love, where he writes to all and sundry without any tone of "teaching" and yet seems to teach so much.

[rivanna]

Tariki, Soma,
thanks, I have mostly been quoting from Mitchell’s notes in case they are helpful to anyone. Living the Tao is beyond me, but as a writer I like to see how different the translations are, and to compare the ideas with biblical concepts, though perhaps I’ve done too much of that. The Tao offers a soothing antidote to the judgmentalism that gets associated with Christianity as an institution (ironic, considering Jesus’ teachings).

[tariki]

rivanna, on 01 November 2009 - 04:00 PM, said:

Tariki, Soma,
thanks, I have mostly been quoting from Mitchell’s notes in case they are helpful to anyone. Living the Tao is beyond me, but as a writer I like to see how different the translations are, and to compare the ideas with biblical concepts, though perhaps I’ve done too much of that. The Tao offers a soothing antidote to the judgmentalism that gets associated with Christianity as an institution (ironic, considering Jesus’ teachings).

"living the Tao is beyond me"..........in all likelyhood its beyond all of us. Yet to my mind the great mistake is to see "living the Tao" as some sort of "target" and grind out a technique/progamme to hit "it". Rivanna, your quote from Lin Yutang's translation.....to yield is to be preserved whole are words my heart responds to. Any perceived failure to "live the Tao" for me is not a call to greater effort/commitment, but another call to surrender.

Just slightly off-key to this, yet still apt, a passage from a letter of Thomas Merton.....

I occasionally meet my own Zen master, in passing, and for a brief moment..........the other day a bluebird sitting on a fence post suddenly took off after a wasp, dived for it, missed, and instantly returned to the same position on the fence post as if nothing had ever happened. A brief, split-second lesson in Zen..........a bird never stops to say "I missed" because, in fact, whether they catch the wasp or not, they never miss.........We in the West are the ones with the hit-or-miss outlook on life, and so we hit and we miss.

[JosephM]

tariki, on 02 November 2009 - 06:59 AM, said:

"living the Tao is beyond me"..........in all likelyhood its beyond all of us. Yet to my mind the great mistake is to see "living the Tao" as some sort of "target" and grind out a technique/progamme to hit "it". Rivanna, your quote from Lin Yutang's translation.....to yield is to be preserved whole are words my heart responds to. Any perceived failure to "live the Tao" for me is not a call to greater effort/commitment, but another call to surrender.

(snip)

In my experience it speaks also as i have found that the harder one tries in spiritual work, the more disappointed one becomes. It suggests to me that ones own efforts merely strengthen the ego or in Christianity, the old creature. And it seems to me the resulting 'spiritual ego' is often more troublesome than the fleshly one. Yes, surrender, does seem to be the call.

Joseph

[rivanna]

Tariki’s story reminded me of Eugen Herrigel’s Zen in the Art of Archery, a book that was required reading for my MFA in poetry.

For me the Tao is a serious poem and path that I enjoy talking about; not a target or something I fail to “hit.” The only target I have these days is art inspiration. I’m starting another studio sublet and recently joined an artists’ co-op--more responsibility, more pressure to create.

Sometimes I wonder about my collage website, if people get the wrong idea. It’s not an attempt to change minds – just some feminist humor images I have fun doing and like to share. If it was an effort to make a difference or accomplish “spiritual work” then I’d be telling myself to “surrender” too.

[soma]

This thread seems to make us all self reflect. My life of activity seems to be a tune up for my spirituality as my attachment to activity falls away. Inspiration leads me to be in the Spirit in the midst of activity. The peace, stillness, Tao are always there even if there is activity all around. This is similar to the eternal silence always present even when noise is present. It is I who choose to give attention to the activity or noise.

In the Bhagavadgita, Krishna teaches that one performs one's duty whether one intends to or not. We are what we think having become what we thought so we are compelled forward by are past thoughts. Jesus said, we reap what we sow. Therefore; We are predetermined by our previous actions, but we can still choose the manner in which we perform those actions. If we are aware in the action, we have to be unattached to the action and can then discriminate whether the action performed was part of the path or creating a path. Creating a path would be an action that is actually a reaction, but an act or thought in awareness would be liberating one from that action so would be a path to freedom.

Thanks to all the preceding thoughts that lead me to this conclusion as I was perplexed for awhile about my life of activities.

[JosephM]

Chapter 23 now open for comments.....

Express yourself completely,
then keep quiet.
Be like the forces of nature:
when it blows, there is only wind;
when it rains, there is only rain;
when the clouds pass, the sun shines through.

If you open yourself to the Tao,
you are at one with the Tao
and you can embody it completely.
If you open yourself to insight,
you are at one with insight
and you can use it completely.
If you open yourself to loss,
you are at one with loss
and you can accept it completely.

Open yourself to the Tao,
then trust your natural responses;
and everything will fall into place.

[tariki]

Nothing from personal experience at the moment, but this verse did jog the old memory cells concerning a little passage from Thomas Merton (again!)

Here it is........

(we should) let go of any idea of ourselves, to take ourselves with more than one grain of salt............In religious terms, this is simply a matter of accepting life, and everything in life as a gift, and clinging to none of it, as far as you are able. You give some of it to others, if you can. Yet one should be able to share things with others without bothering too much about how they like it, either, or how they accept it. Assume they will accept it, if they need it. And if they don't need it, why should they accept it? That is their business. Let me accept what is mine and give them all their share, and go my way.

And the little line or two about opening ourselves to the Tao. Looking back and reflecting I wonder did I ever seek to "open myself" except in the most misguided ways? The Pure Land way I follow (if "follow" is the right word) is one of radical "other power". In Christian terms, I think of the words of John Donne......."Grace, if thou repent, thou shalt not lack; yet who shall give ye that grace to begin?."

[Mike]

JosephM, on 05 November 2009 - 09:30 AM, said:

Chapter 23 now open for comments.....

Express yourself completely,
then keep quiet.
Be like the forces of nature:
when it blows, there is only wind;
when it rains, there is only rain;
when the clouds pass, the sun shines through.

If you open yourself to the Tao,
you are at one with the Tao
and you can embody it completely.
If you open yourself to insight,
you are at one with insight
and you can use it completely.
If you open yourself to loss,
you are at one with loss
and you can accept it completely.

Open yourself to the Tao,
then trust your natural responses;
and everything will fall into place.

Wholeness comes by not struggling against your own nature, which at root is the Tao or 'Other power' that Tariki speaks of (and what your username actually means, right?).
What comes to mind is the rather famous Zen saying that has already been mentioned. When asked what Buddhism is, the master replied 'when we're hungry we eat, when we're tired we sleep.' Whatever we are doing we ought to identify with it completely, not dwelling on false realities. When the wind blows it does nothing except blow, it is nothing except what arises spontaneously according to what wind naturally does. We too are to be single, whole. We are to be human, who we are, and not bifurcate ourselves, try to step away from reality and be something else. In this way, again following Tariki in thinking in terms of Pure Land, we might come to see that our own self power is none other than Other power.

soma, on 29 October 2009 - 05:14 PM, said:

Rivanna, Your post triggered a thought on wholeness. Wholeness or holiness can be achieved with a watchful mind and the knowledge that everything is united, if old fears, doubts and prejudices wear away to make room for new ideas and new understanding. New means being renewed constantly in the present.

Looking upon a broader horizon across all the experiences that are limited and unpleasant we can see the dazzling light of a new dawn where everything is unified. Our motions within and without resolve themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when we focus on simple unity and have become acquainted with God's pure consciousness that is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, we enter into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because we realize that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. We become multisensory, no longer using only five senses.

We do not create this expanding wholeness because it is a divine idea, but we can become aware of this divine Reality that has existed since before the beginning of time by opening up and accepting it, when it creates a wonderful new good in our lives.

The inward reality is linked with the inward reality of the whole universe if we let go of our small reality. In Christ consciousness there is a place in the mind that merges with the Mind of God and draws strength and inspiration from it, when we stop grasping. Therefore, Christ said, "I and the Father are one." The words, "I and the Father are one" can be interpreted to mean that I, the individual ego does not exist. The Father is everything so nothing has existence except God's pure consciousness; God is all there is; and I am a nonentity.

One doesn't just unite with gross matter as if eating the food we love but one's every potential becomes activated in Christ consciousness, and the whole man or woman is born again in the consciousness united with everything. I feel this is how God enters our human reality, and we become whole or holy.

The world in itself has no reality at all because it is in perpetual change without much meaning or consistency. The objects and things existing in it are separated in time and space and are changing from one moment to the next. Therefore, the microcosm apart from the macrocosm is nothing but when it knows the macrocosm, it is reality itself, constant and full of being. The feeling that we fell from God's pure consciousness and lost bliss in the Garden of Eden is due to the separation from our internal existence. I feel this has caused the present era of confusion where everything is divided, not centered, and separated from the whole or God's pure consciousness. This can be related to the story of Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden or the unit consciousness separating from God's pure consciousness. No need to worry though because everyone will be delivered from this separation. As the inner light unfolds, it delivers the outer life from bondage because we really never left.

I think the tree of knowledge of good and evil puzzled Adam, and he lost the spiritual connection with the whole. Adam saw everything through the veil of his individual ego so he saw things menacing him and separate from God because the balance of the universe became blurred. After leaving the Garden of Eden and the state of pure consciousness, Adam tried to regain his original state by creating his own balance. This creation of individual consciousness I feel is not reality because it is a state of isolation on the physical level, not a working together in harmony with the whole. The unit consciousness focused outwardly on the physical level I would say turns out to be the first phase of evolution. The second phase of evolution is a conscious development or rising above the external, physical world a kind of involution. I feel this can marry science and spirituality so they are both correct about evolution.

The mind is very remarkable how it creates and maintains the illusion of ego and hides our real self. The Tao snaps us back beyond the mind away from the disconnected and the dissociated to become unified with the whole. I feel these stories are about the universe vibrating a message of one body, one organic whole that separates and again unites in consciousness.

I hate to backtrack again but I wanted to mention that I really appreciated this post, Soma, as it strongly touches upon the central themes that have come to be important to me as well. You said...

The inward reality is linked with the inward reality of the whole universe if we let go of our small reality.

...which to me is a very succinct and powerful statement, and I thought it complemented something I read from Alan Watts very well. In his 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity' he says:

The reality which we apprehend subjectively as mind is also what we know objectively as 'things'. It is...neither subjective nor objective. In the mind - as minds - we are that which, otherwise, we only see. It is simply the point of most intimate contact with reality, and all the pride of knowledge is put to confusion by the fact that at the point where we feel reality most intimately we understand it least.
For I never know my 'own' act of knowing...it is meaningless to say that I do it, or that I know.

Peace to you,
Mike

This post has been edited by Mike: 05 November 2009 - 02:15 PM

[soma]

Mike I am with you. I look with amazement at my Children and the young people today and see how talented they are. I enjoy their talent as if it were my own because when I look at myself I see no talent except to make myself a flute at times so the wind can play a tune. Richard Hawkins said the universe spreads out infinitely in every direction so that makes everyone the center of the universe because everyone would have an infinite amount of stars on every side. It seems finding that center is a rare talent indeed so for me spiritual practice is needed to get on track to get away from that small reality, which seems so big when inside it, but beyond the boundaries it is small. Thanks for the encouragement.

[tariki]

Wholeness comes by not struggling against your own nature, which at root is the Tao or 'Other power' that Tariki speaks of (and what your username actually means, right?).

Mike,

OK, hands up, you've sussed me!

Your perception that wholeness does not come by struggling against your own nature is profound. In the Buddhist Dictionary of Nyanatiloka anatta (not-self) is referred to as the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. I still seek to understand it after far too many years, but mainly by dispensing with false understandings. When I was a lad I once went to the Science Museum in London and in the children's section there was an exhibit that consisted of a round table with hammers on chains hanging on the side. In the middle of the table was a hole, and every few seconds or so a silver ball would pop up. The idea was to try to hit the ball with the hammer before it popped back down into the hole. Anyway, this seems to be the way many would be Buddhists approach the "ego", which they identify with the "self", the self that is "not". Thats one of the false understandings in terms of practice (well, hopefully false, otherwise I'm sailing up the creek without a paddle!)

Other Power means to be free of any form of calculation. There is a little verse by saichi....

O Saichi, won't you tell us about Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither Other Power nor Self Power.
What is, is the graceful acceptance only

[rivanna]

Soma, I sense profound wisdom and depth of feeling in your posts but confess I don’t always understand them well enough to respond- sorry.

Two things stand out for me in chapter 23 -- the idea of focusing on one thing at a time: being fully present in what you’re doing, not getting sidetracked, knowing how to pace yourself--this has always been a challenge for me, and I see it as a widespread problem in our culture.

Mitchell’s only note on this stanza refers to the ending: “trust the intelligence of the body.” In many other versions, the last lines are translated as “Those who do not trust enough will not be trusted” (or very similar wording). This I’ve experienced in myself and in others.
I couldn’t think of any bible verses on this exactly, but a couple of parables in Luke came to mind. The “unjust judge” finally helps out the widow who keeps pestering him, seeking justice for herself and her children. And the “friend at midnight” who goes to the neighbor and says please lend me some loaves of bread since I have unexpected guests and nothing to feed them. In both cases those who do trust enough are rewarded.

[JosephM]

Two Biblical writings come to my mind in regard to the verses.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Prov 3:5-6 (KJV)

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)



Joseph