[Timeflows]

Janet has suggested that perhaps we should discuss the relevance of prayer for Progressive Christians.
I am assuming the question is about when we have given up on the concept of a god who is constantly steering the events of our lives?
Do other progressives still pray in any form? Or is prayer a dead ritual when individual requests are no longer on the agenda?
Do the concepts of thanksgiving and praise still make it a worthwhile concept?
And how do people deal with a request to lead prayer in public, when listeners may be expecting something quite different from what you are comfortable with?
I have many questions about prayer, but this is a starting point.
Talking about people's prayer life seems to be like asking someone what they earn...a very personal topic.



This topic was moved unchanged from debate section to dialog for progressive Christians --- JosephM (Moderator)

[JosephM]

As a PC I have not given up on the concept of a God who is in a sense steering the events of our lives. In fact I see more of God's divine order in my life as I progress. For me, prayer is mostly a wordless event except when in public and asked to lead in prayer or by special request. I know that God knows what I have need of and trust what is needed will come my way. To me it is more of a watching for answers than a wording of a prayer or request. If someone asks me to pray for them as in a special request, I listen for instructions and if I sense an unction I declare it done as I see it in Spirit and with a few exceptions, for which I have no explanation, it is done. That's about all I have to contribute and look forward to the experience of others and how they see the relevance of prayer as a PC.
Joseph

[Jake]

I'm new here, and I am glad this has come up. Prayer has become a major dilemma for me. I do not personally accept God as a supernatural parent, so prayer in the "ask and you shall receive" sense has lost meaning for me. I also do not see God as an interloper in life, but the source of all life, so i do not accept that a divine hand will alter the path of anything in this plane of existence. That being said, I still feel compelled to pray. I have heard it called anything from "centering prayer" to meditation, but the compulsion is very deep, and the serenity I experience from the act is sincere. My prayer has become anything from a random moment of silence to calm my jagged nerves in a moment of stress, to recitations of "the Jesus Prayer" with a string of beads, to trips around the rosary with the traditional 'Our Father" and "Ave Maria". I find a sense of reverence and sanctity in traditional prayer, even though my religious bend is very unorthodox. Does this make any sense, or I am I just creating a biofeedback reaction of my own instigation?

[Timeflows]

Hi Jake,
I agree with you. The issue of prayer is complex.
Without it, there are parts of my life, that I would have struggled to get through.
And I agree that the traditional stuff remains a comfort some times, despite problems that I may have with its theology.
Hearing people sing "Oh Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world" should offend me theologically, but it is calming and I still love it (and many other hymns of a similar time in history and way of thinking.)
Just as religious singing from other traditions, that I know little about, can have an effect.
The Lord's Prayer is unproblematic for me and something that I can pull out of my repertoire, as my only voice, when I am in a situation of absolute despair.
I have chanted it over and over when I have had no strength to formulate anything else.
Today, I pray very rarely in a traditional sense. The centreing prayer that you talk about is what I would do most often.
Like 'Help me to be more tolerant in this situation. Help me to be patient. Help me to focus. Help me to calm down.Help me to think clearly and make the right decision.'
I agree with the writer Anne Lamott on this "Help me.Help me" and "Thank you. Thank you." are powerful prayers.
I still enjoy more traditional forms of prayer as a way of thinking of others, on a personal, but also global scale.
I have no idea when I speak these things, who I address it to, but as long as it is helpful, for me at least, I will persist.
For example, with a sick person, I cannot pray for their recovery, but I will pray that they know that they are cared for and thought of and that they may find peace.
I struggle in a church situation, where people are wanting a structure of praise, thanksgiving, petitions etc and it all ending with "we ask this in Jesus name."
I am really bad at that kind of prayer and I am glad to have learnt new ways to pray as I have gotten older.
I have no answers, but I find they are less important as I go along.

[jerryb]

Timeflows, on Jun 24 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

Hi Jake,
I agree with you. The issue of prayer is complex.
Without it, there are parts of my life, that I would have struggled to get through.
And I agree that the traditional stuff remains a comfort some times, despite problems that I may have with its theology.
Hearing people sing "Oh Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world" should offend me theologically, but it is calming and I still love it (and many other hymns of a similar time in history and way of thinking.)
Just as religious singing from other traditions, that I know little about, can have an effect.
The Lord's Prayer is unproblematic for me and something that I can pull out of my repertoire, as my only voice, when I am in a situation of absolute despair.
I have chanted it over and over when I have had no strength to formulate anything else.
Today, I pray very rarely in a traditional sense. The centreing prayer that you talk about is what I would do most often.
Like 'Help me to be more tolerant in this situation. Help me to be patient. Help me to focus. Help me to calm down.Help me to think clearly and make the right decision.'
I agree with the writer Anne Lamott on this "Help me.Help me" and "Thank you. Thank you." are powerful prayers.
I still enjoy more traditional forms of prayer as a way of thinking of others, on a personal, but also global scale.
I have no idea when I speak these things, who I address it to, but as long as it is helpful, for me at least, I will persist.
For example, with a sick person, I cannot pray for their recovery, but I will pray that they know that they are cared for and thought of and that they may find peace.
I struggle in a church situation, where people are wanting a structure of praise, thanksgiving, petitions etc and it all ending with "we ask this in Jesus name."
I am really bad at that kind of prayer and I am glad to have learnt new ways to pray as I have gotten older.
I have no answers, but I find they are less important as I go along.

Greetings Time,


I too value and use Anne Lamott's simple,beautiful little prayer. Sometimes....that's all I can say....those desperate,simple,powerful little words.
I am learning how to direct my pray words away from the sky,and instead pray from the very depths
of my heart,where I have come to believe God really lives.

blessings,

jerryb

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I have struggled with this issue for some time, and my recent thoughts are that prayer helps me to focus energy into particular directions. If I bring to God what is on my heart, it also becomes present in my mind. A friend of mine attended a talk where the speaker was saying that if you want something, you need to concentrate on that thing in a very focused manner and picture yourself attaining what you desire. The example my friend used was that a girl had focused on winning a shopping spree, and she indirectly got one after months of focusing on how she would feel if she won. I told my friend that to me, that is a lot what prayer is like -- except that my desires would be change in myself or change in the world. Asking for God's power to change or taking time to express gratitude focuses me in the right direction.

I also just finished an online Bible study that suggested some of us are too rigid about how we pray. The study had us take a self inventory of our personalities, and the things that help to center us. For example, if a person is athletic, they may make time to connect with God while jogging. In my case, much of my "prayer" life is offering up an appropriate song to God at my piano and then sitting in silence.

[Timeflows]

I am very much in agreement with what has been said, about non-traditional forms of prayer, but what about the issue Joseph raised, of God still in some sense steering our lives?
This is the bit that I struggle with most. If God has time to "steer" events in my life, why he is not steering nations and leaders?
If I accept that God is not steering at all, then does this "centre-ing prayer" become just inner talk as Jake suggested? (Bio- feedback.)
And does it matter, if it helps us to work towards the goals of inclusiveness and social justice that Jesus brings into focus?

[JosephM]

Timeflows, on Jun 27 2009, 07:39 PM, said:

I am very much in agreement with what has been said, about non-traditional forms of prayer, but what about the issue Joseph raised, of God still in some sense steering our lives?
This is the bit that I struggle with most. If God has time to "steer" events in my life, why he is not steering nations and leaders?
If I accept that God is not steering at all, then does this "centre-ing prayer" become just inner talk as Jake suggested? (Bio- feedback.)
And does it matter, if it helps us to work towards the goals of inclusiveness and social justice that Jesus brings into focus?

HI Timeflows,

To understand what I mean when I said that "I have not given up on the concept of a God who is in a sense steering the events of our lives and In fact I see more of God's divine order in my life as I progress", one has to not look at a God who is as man or outside of self or separate from ANY of creation. God who is the source of my very life energy that is seen as my self (the created conditioned creature) is not separate because nothing can happen in the manifested world of self without the empowerment and concurrent energy of God which is always at each moment in the concept of time a sum total of All that is throughout time. From that perspective there are no accidents or causes within the manifested world of self. This manifested world is a world of effects and not causes. It is creation unfolding. That which appears as cause is merely preconditions. We are evolving creatures that exist in a divine balance. Every hair on our head is numbered. In that sense, which is most difficult to put in understandable words each of us are in reality tied together as One. In this world, there can not be a perpetrator without a willing victim nor a victim without a willing perpetrator. a giver without a receiver, good without evil, beautiful without ugly, etc. They are one and the same and seen as creation evolves in time. This is in a sense a self regulating universe of which God is the source. In this sense God is steering the events of our lives according to our present state of consciousness. We make limited conditioned choices and creation evolves but not without the steering of the nature of God which empowers both that which you now see as 'good' or 'evil' which in reality is a concept that exists only in mind. I realize this opens a Pandora's box of questions, and may even sound like double talk, nevertheless, in my experience, this is true.

Yes, indeed God is steering the nations and leaders also as you might suppose. It is part of creation which is one and the same with the creator. It is not two things. There are no parts in God. When you try to conceptualize what I am saying, you run into paradox after paradox. You must experience this for yourself and then no words are necessary, or possible for that matter because it is beyond the concepts of the created creature. It can only be subjectively experienced by the creature.

This is just my view for your consideration of the question. Agreement or disagreement is not being solicited.
It is my present verbalized attempt to answer what seems unanswerable. To me, experience comes first and then attempts to conceptualize it follow which to me are always inadequate.
Joseph

[glintofpewter]

I see that this topic has been idle but ...

Joseph wrote

Quote

I have not given up on the concept of a God who is in a sense steering the events of our lives and In fact I see more of God's divine order in my life as I progress.

I wonder if God is not steering from the back of the boat, but is in that space before the next moment. That when we and God meet in the present God is revealed and made complete. Is God steering the nations? No. Can the people of the nations join with God in the present? Yes, I think they can. Without us God cannot steer anything.

Just thinking out loud
Dutch

[Mike]

Perhaps it may be said that in the act of prayer God is intervening in our lives? In the sense that it is not we ourselves who pray but the spirit. This assumes of course that God is not ontologically separate from our own lives or life in general.

This post has been edited by Mike: 10 July 2009 - 06:03 AM

[faithdrivenmom]

I do not declare myself a Progressive Christian - I am merely a human who chooses to follow Christ. I really despise labels - it pigeonholes and boxes one in, and I do not find that is what God desires for our lives.

In any case, not to digress from this thread, how I have come to see prayer in my life is like having a conversation with God. Not asking for specific things, just talking with Him about issues I have - or just to talk with Him period. Most times these are silent conversations I have in my head - and I know He hears me. Otherwise I view prayer almost as a spell...a desire to control God to our own whims. I did this for too long in my life - trying to control God to my personal whims - and I refuse to revert back to an old mindset thinking I can control Him. We have no authority to control Him in my perceptions - but we have the authority to have faith in Him.

[glintofpewter]

faithdrivenmom, on Jul 10 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

I have come to see prayer in my life is like having a conversation with God. Not asking for specific things, just talking with Him about issues I have - or just to talk with Him period.

I think this is one of the most important aspects of prayer.
I knew an artist who walked into her studio each day and asked silently. "OK, God what are we going to make today."

Dutch

[soma]

I see prayer as my talking to God and when God talks to me I call it intuition.

[Kyler Rush]

I have been struggling with prayer for years. To be honest, it's a very painful topic for me.
When I was little I used to love praying before dinner. My sister and I used to argue over who got to pray! Later in life I became afraid of prayer because of some painful situations that came out of nowhere. Not too long after that my mom used to force me to pray with the other people in our pew. My sisters protected me from her as best they could and eventually my mom gave up on getting me to pray. Now I go to a different church and I'm trying to pray but I'm still scared to and it still hurts. Im even afraid to as for others to pray for me, but admiting my fears helps so please bear with me.
And forgive my awful spelling.
Kyler.

[glintofpewter]

Hi, Kyler

I think there are some good answers to your conflict about prayer in earlier posts. I would just add one observation. Asking someone to pray for you or being asked to pray for them seems also to be a social contract in which you say to the individual, "I care about you." or "I'll be thinking about you." But we often say "I'll pray for you." because that's what we are used to. This is just one more layer to many layers of "prayer."

Richard Foster wrote "To pray is to change" and whether we need other's care, or we are looking for a Divine answer, or are troubled, when you sit by the window praying, so to speak, change will happen, and it will be for good. When someone knows what the answer is before praying then there will be no change.

Years ago when my daughter was very ill, after 3 intense days Diane and I were exhausted. Twelve people from our church came to the hospital, gowned up, and went into Annie's room to pray. In the hallway Diane and I slid down the wall. The first person who spoke prayed for the evil spirits to leave the room. Not ever a reality that I lived in, but she cared and out of her reality she was helping as best she knew. What mattered was that 12 people cared enough to be there with us. It is not what happens; it is who you are with when it happens. In Spirit and in body.

So much for just adding one observation . . .

Peace,
Dutch

[Kyler Rush]

glintofpewter, on 14 July 2009 - 08:07 PM, said:

Hi, Kyler

I think there are some good answers to your conflict about prayer in earlier posts.

Not to argue or disagree disrespectfully, but I don't really think there is an answer to my conflict in any of the earlier posts.
I'm afraid to pray because I prayed once for something bad to stop happening, but instead of stopping it just got worse. Every time I prayed it seemed to either get worse or just continue. I've lost confidence in prayer, in myself and in my ability to pray. Praying freaks me out! I just don't want to make something worse by praying for it to get better. I don't think seeing prayer another way will help me get back to it.
Strange; my faith in God has been refounded, but I'm still afraid to pray to him. I'm not afraid to talk to him, just pray. When things get bad, I flee to God, but I'm afraid to tell him whats making me run. I just sit there in his presense catching my breath so I can go back out into the world again. Am I alone in this? Am I the only one afraid to pray? It seems to me it'd be one of the rarest phobias in the world.

Kyler.

[JosephM]

Hi Kyler,

A prayer is in essence defined as an act of communion with God. It seems to me that your sitting there in his presence is sufficient as there is nothing that is unknown to God or that is actually required to be spoken. If it works for you then in my view, it is most wonderful.

As sentient creatures, it seems we all have past painful experiences in our lives. It is part of our unique conditioning/experiences that may be in principle similar to others yet it is discreetly different. When the time is right and you are ready, it is my view, that you will shake that fear as a captive that has had his chains loose. And when it is gone you may still choose to just sit in God's presence. Until then, keep following what works for you and know that we as a community are in support of your search and you are accepted just as you are.

Love in Christ,
Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Kyler,

We seem to be talking past your pain. There are many things I would want to say if I thought they were relevant to your pain surrounding your experiences with prayer. I will share one story that may or may not speak to you.

An acquaintance of mine, who I will call Robert, was struggling, along with his family, with an issue that was of concern to all of them. They prayed for months. Sometimes he fasted or took retreats to pray. His family prayed. Over time Robert began to feel a Divine wholeness settling in his heart. However his family was increasingly upset and finally rejected the answer that Robert was experiencing. Robert experienced change and wholeness brought by prayer. His family did not.

Peace
Dutch

[Adi Gibb]

Hi Kyler,

My personal take on this is that, like many things associated with supreme love, to give into that can make you feel incredibly vulnerable. And if you have been hurt badly by a relationship in the past, why wouldn't you be scared to engage in another one? And that is what prayer is, a relationship, for me anyway.

So I don't blame you for being afraid mate, I don't think you are alone and I don't think you are weird for feeling like that. But if, as you say, your faith has been refounded, maybe there is a gradual process you can go through to refind prayer? I personally find praying to God, which I usually call the limtless divine, WAY too daunting, and see Jesus, who I tend to call Yeshua, as a bridge if you like, an ordinary Joe, just like us, but pretty darned special, who can pass on my messages for me. So I pray to Yeshua, and that is less daunting. I also think you could start doing things like centering prayers, which I know Tony Camplolo advocates. DOn't ask for anything, nothing at all, maybe just breathe deeply, acknowledge your own existence, the existence of the Limitless Divine, and thank it for the blessings in your life. As you feel more confident, maybe you begin asking for guidance or whatever. I also know of a movement called Christian Meditation, exactly designed for those who feel they need a different way to communicate with God. You simply breathe and recite the word Maranatha as four syllables, MA-RA-NA-THA, while breathing out, which means something like 'Come Lord' in Aramaic.

Anyway, you are not alone, you are not strange, and I reckon it's just a matter of time before you are back on that horse! Thank you for being so courageous to share this with us! Hope my ramblings make some sort of sense.

[rivanna]

I thought of this thread as I was reading Faith and Will, by Julia Cameron (2009). Her approach was refreshing, helped me rethink my own “unanswered prayers” -- for one of my kids who’s having a tough time, for a brother who’s ill, for art inspiration, etc. Maybe it relates to others who have talked about feeling blocked or afraid about prayer.

Cameron’s suggestion is that we start by telling God what we are grateful for (something Adi Gibb mentioned) – “it is by seeing our blessings that we begin to fathom the possibility that God could actually intend for there to be more of them.”

She also advises us to pray, “please give me knowledge of your will for me and the power to carry it out” instead of focusing only on what we hope for. The concept is that we are collaborating, involved with God in a partnership, and that no good comes to us before we are ready to receive it. “What we seldom realize is that there is such a thing as the grace of God, and it can be actively invoked in our behalf.”