[David]

minsocal, on Jun 9 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

My church is "inclusive" in that they would never turn anyone away. But, some come there who are conservative and fundamentalist. They end up leaving on their own accord because the church does not fit their belief system. We had a strange case two years ago. A man started attending services weekly and seemed to connect with the community. He attended a class I was teaching on Christian ethics and was responding very favorably until I mentioned the fact that I was gay. I'll not soon forget the look on his face. The night before he had been to a dinner sponsored by the church and had lectured the group on the evils of homosexuality (he didn't even know that five members of the dinner party were gay). We never saw him again.

The local Baptist church in my town also advertises that they “welcome all people”. I am sure that everyone there would agree with you that their church “does not turn anyone away”. But what happens is just exactly what happened in your church. A newcomer will eventually find out whether they do or do not “belong”. A Church that really includes Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgender persons by making them leaders and pastors will not be “welcoming” to those who want to exclude them from leadership or even membership. There is just no way to invite those persons into leadership and exclude them at the same time. Some “group” is not going to be happy. Certainly we all can be “good neighbors” and “try to get along” but true welcoming for “all people” is just not possible.

I have seen cases that you describe. I actually think it works more often from the other direction. Persons who want to be accepted based upon sexual identity are drawn to progressive churches even if those churches do not reflect the Biblical Truth that they know. Those people stay based upon the fact that the local Baptist church does not accept them. But when it comes time to call a pastor that “split” within the congregation shows up.

I actually like the typical “extravagant welcome” that many Churches advertise. But I also think that those Churches owe it not only to themselves but also potential members to be very public about those missions that divide. I see some of these “non denominational” groups out there hiding behind a vague “positive” message that appeals to a broad base. A person really has to dig for a while to see that these are Assembly of God related groups. There is joint responsibility here. The individual Church needs to take a very public and published responsibility for missions that will obviously exclude and the individual needs to try to find out as soon as possible whether they will “belong” or not. Both of those goals can be helped by clear and public messages about missions which are much more than "we won't turn anyone away".

[David]

JosephM, on Jun 10 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

It seems to me that the conclusion of this statement may not be be taking into consideration a couple points. If a person says he/she fits under the umbrella of TCPC 8 points yet demonstrates by his/her words and speech over time that they indeed in practice do not agree or take an exception to a point, they would NOT still be posting in the "protected area". This is the job of the Moderator. Such judgments, of course, require careful consideration and patience so as not to be hasty. Perhaps this is not as safe a place as you would like to see it. But I would propose this "protected area" is a far cry more protected than it was 2 months ago and as we work out details I am confident this site will support a community both diverse and progressive where compassion reigns over differing beliefs or views. Those who are uncomfortable with our guidelines and administrative efforts to keep things in line with TCPC 's mission and 8 points will probably leave of their own accord as minsocal pointed out in his post concerning his church.

I would like to thank all those who contributed to this thread and welcome any additional views. Maintaining such a site as this, is no easy task, and in the end, all cannot be satisfied. With such differing views all I can do is weight the comments in line with the mission and eight points and do what what I feel makes the most sense and with the cooperation of all members try to make this a more comfortable board for all members without violating the principles TCPC is founded on.

Joseph

Some people come waving flags that tell us what they are all about. My neighbor raised a confederate flag on Obama’s inauguration day. That message seemed clear to me and I did not have to wait for him to speak one word in order to understand it. Now if someone is not so demonstrative then obviously giving the “benefit of the doubt” is always best.

I agree that being a moderator is a very difficult task. Perhaps it would be good to set up some kind of “interim” thing before a person is allowed to post in the protected area. Perhaps we should ask people to respond to points 2, 4 and 6 before they are allowed to post in the protected area. Maybe there are better ideas about an “interim” thing.

Because of past experience here I tend to agree with OA that even the debate area be eliminated. I wonder how much there is “value added” by having a debate area. But if TCPC wants to have an area for that then I can live with that and just not debate those with whom it seems futile. I just have to find some way of not reading the posts of those who want to continue those debates on forever.

This post has been edited by David: 10 June 2009 - 06:41 PM

[October's Autumn]

I was on an email list thats intent was to create a safe place for people. On this list newbies were moderated and their emails would not appear until a moderator had approved it. After a certain number of posts they would go unmoderated unless an issue came up. This allowed the moderators to create a safety net for the already existing members.

[JosephM]

David, on Jun 10 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

Some people come waving flags that tell us what they are all about. My neighbor raised a confederate flag on Obama's inauguration day. That message seemed clear to me and I did not have to wait for him to speak one word in order to understand it. Now if someone is not so demonstrative then obviously giving the "benefit of the doubt" is always best.

Perhaps I am a bit slower to be as certain about the meaning of some displays and see no harm in extending privileges on a persons word prior to finding out otherwise. Regardless, no harm was done to the protected area and I think we are not so fragile that we cannot weather a few minor incidents or storms that can be promptly corrected.

Quote

I agree that being a moderator is a very difficult task. Perhaps it would be good to set up some kind of "interim" thing before a person is allowed to post in the protected area. Perhaps we should ask people to respond to points 2, 4 and 6 before they are allowed to post in the protected area. Maybe there are better ideas about an "interim" thing.

That is a consideration as there are tools to do such as that within the IPB Message board administrative panel.

Quote

Because of past experience here I tend to agree with OA that even the debate area be eliminated. I wonder how much there is "value added" by having a debate area. But if TCPC wants to have an area for that then I can live with that and just not debate those with whom it seems futile. I just have to find some way of not reading the posts of those who want to continue those debates on forever.

Should you decide that you personally do not want to have access to the debate area so you do not have to read those posts, that is a permission tool I also have access to in my control panel and would be happy to accommodate you or anyone else if I am PM'ed of that request.

Joseph (Moderator/Admin2)

[minsocal]

davidk, on Jun 10 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

It has been properly made known there is a certain distance between fundamental and fundamentalist(m). And consider that people can have a very fundamentalist attitude while adhering to the fundamental "...components that are essential to anyone who considers themselves a Progressive Christian".- Fred Plummer

Having heard Pastor Fred speak to this issue as my Pastor for a number of years I think I have a good idea what he is talking about. I don't think he has changed his mind, but could you please provide the full source?

[JosephM]

In the original post I have stated the mission of TCPC and how we are working to fulfil that mission. Yet I personally believe it is worth also mentioning that it is important that we not in essence create another religion as if we have something to sell, or control, or to charge for. All that we have is a gift from God. Religion can be sectarian and often divides people into groups. This creates conflicts as history so often speaks of. It seems to me, the ideas that hold us together if we are to survive, must be those of forgiveness, love, peace, mercy,thankfulness and non-judmentalism. These things to me are universally true and without religious label. This to me is what we are here for.

Joseph

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I'd like to take a moment and say thanks to Joseph. I know it has not been an easy task, but I think the protected area has been much more "on topic" since you have become moderator, and I appreciate that.

[minsocal]

When I think of the word "progressive" I do not think only of Christianity. The word applies to different religions and domains such as politics. Progressive Christianity and progressive Christianity often ovelap. Secular Hunanism also comes to mind. In many ways, our progresswive friends share the values found in the Eight Points. While I the agree with thePoints, I think we must also consider our relationship with other like minded people and other communities.

[davidk]

minsocal, on Jun 11 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Having heard Pastor Fred speak to this issue ... I don't think he has changed his mind, but could you please provide the full source?

I had cut and pasted his comment from an article he had written on the TCPC website concerning and immediately preceding the TCPC's fundamental 8 Points. I'm sure if you are personal with Fred, he'll verify it sooner than for me to try to find the archives (which I cannot access) and then to find where he had written it.

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on Jun 17 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

I'd like to take a moment and say thanks to Joseph. I know it has not been an easy task, but I think the protected area has been much more "on topic" since you have become moderator, and I appreciate that.

ditto

[October's Autumn]

minsocal, on Jun 17 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

I think we must also consider our relationship with other like minded people and other communities.

I agree. I've said in other places and probably here, too that some of the most Christ-like people I have met have been atheists/agnostics or people who practice no religion of any kind and are not spiritual, at all. Those who claim to be Christians (most loudly) are usually the people who are least Christ-like, in my experience both in "real life" and on the internet.

[davidk]

October, on Jun 19 2009, 01:49 AM, said:

I agree. I've said in other places and probably here, too that some of the most Christ-like people I have met have been atheists/agnostics or people who practice no religion of any kind and are not spiritual, at all. Those who claim to be Christians (most loudly) are usually the people who are least Christ-like, in my experience both in "real life" and on the internet.

I tend to agree with this, though some, of either persuasion, may not appreciate such compliments. It may be noted that in the past this had been addressed: Christians (progressive or otherwise) are humans like the rest of us and therefore, are subject to the frailties of being so disposed. And that man, Christian or not, acts like Christianity is true, regardlesss of the Christian, other religious, or secular term used to desribe moral behavior, both in "real life" and on the internet.

[billmc]

I know this is an older thread, but I hope it's okay for me to share a few personal thoughts about the TCPC community and these are by no means an attack upon anyone. I suspect that these thoughts will say more about me than they do about the TCPC forum.

If anyone is bored out of their skull enough to follow my posts, you will see that I post here sporadically. I come from a fundamentalist background where I was taught that it was paramount to discern truth as quickly as possible so as to not be deceived by error. So I have to really fight to keep my posts from being reactionary or confrontational. And I'm not always successful at it. So I occassionally take sabbaticals in order to process.

The TCPC forum is a blessing to me because I am exposed to ideas, paradigms, and experiences that I would never find in my local churches or even in the progressive books that I read. There is a wealth of experiences and wisdom here that is shared and I don't have to tithe to get it. Seriously, even with people with whom I disagree, there is a rare treasure found here.

On the other hand, the powers that be here at TCPC and it's associated forum are pretty clear that this is for CHRISTIANS. Progressive Christians, but Christians nonetheless. And I am no longer a Christian by most orthodox and churches' standards. I won't go on about this because I usually cover this territory in one way or another in my posts, but suffice it to say that no one that I personally know would consider me to be a Christian any longer. My God, I'm not even a theist! Nevertheless, I find some great wisdom in some parts of the Bible and especially in Jesus' teachings. I also believe that Jesus was a person indwelt by God and that his life is an excellent example of what a life filled with God would look like.

Here is where I risk offending people, but I want to say it anyway, even though it will probably get me nowhere: I wish we could drop the name "Christian". I think it is too tied to old ideas and paradigms to be efficiently useful for people who, perhaps like me, are spiritual but don't want to be religious. So the 8 Points that state "We are Christians who..." automatically rules me out. I wish it would simply say, "We are people who..." or "We are a community that..." and leave the judgment (if necessary) of who is a Christian or what is Christian either to God or in the dust. Saying "We are Christians who...", at least for me, says that PCs, at heart, really don't think or act any different than other Christians...and I hope and pray that this is not the case.

Yes, I could try to "reclaim" the title or label of being a Christian; a "new kind of Christian" (thanks, Brian) or a "progressive Christian". But, at least for me, that is like saying that I no longer want to be called a "circle", that, due to a paradigm shift, I want to be known as a "square circle." Spong, despite the titles of his books, says that Christianity is dying, that a couple hundred years from now there will be no Christianity. I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, so I don't know how true his prediction will be. But I do feel that, in calling this website, this forum, and this group "Christians", walls are inherently erected and then time, effort, and bandwidth is spent defending those walls. Right or wrong, Christianity is seen as a religion about making converts. As long as TCPC uses the name "Christian", it will have to deal with ALL the baggage and misconceptions that go along with that name.

Whoever is reading this, thanks for listening.

[JosephM]

billmc, on 23 August 2009 - 08:07 PM, said:

I know this is an older thread, but I hope it's okay for me to share a few personal thoughts about the TCPC community and these are by no means an attack upon anyone. I suspect that these thoughts will say more about me than they do about the TCPC forum.

I surely believe in resurrection. Your resurrection of threads are often stimulating. Seriously Bill, it is always okay for you to post here and in my view, you seem to always bless us more than yourself.

Quote

The TCPC forum is a blessing to me because I am exposed to ideas, paradigms, and experiences that I would never find in my local churches or even in the progressive books that I read. There is a wealth of experiences and wisdom here that is shared and I don't have to tithe to get it. Seriously, even with people with whom I disagree, there is a rare treasure found here.

Bill, that is a great compliment to TCPC as a whole because that is 2 of the points of its fourfold mission ..

» To reach out to those for whom organized religion has proved ineffectual, irrelevant, or repressive, as well as to those who have given up on or are unacquainted with it.

» To support those who embrace the search, not certainty.

Quote

On the other hand, the powers that be here at TCPC and it's associated forum are pretty clear that this is for CHRISTIANS. Progressive Christians, but Christians nonetheless. And I am no longer a Christian by most orthodox and churches' standards. I won't go on about this because I usually cover this territory in one way or another in my posts, but suffice it to say that no one that I personally know would consider me to be a Christian any longer. My God, I'm not even a theist! Nevertheless, I find some great wisdom in some parts of the Bible and especially in Jesus' teachings. I also believe that Jesus was a person indwelt by God and that his life is an excellent example of what a life filled with God would look like.

Just a clarification, Actually this forum is not just for Christians. By calling ourselves progressive, we mean we are Christians who...



Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to):

believers and agnostics,
conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
women and men,
those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
those of all races and cultures,
those of all classes and abilities,
those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope

The forum is for all of the above and hosted by Progressive Christians. It is true that there are some area that we reserve only for Progressive Christians or material of interest to progressive Christians but we find that even people who consider themselves PC's can benefit from learning other wisdom traditions or from the experience of others with widely differing views as long as it can be done in Love. In that sense we are a wonderfully mixed community and the label is always rather insignificant compared to the community itself.

Bill, Thanks for creating the opportunity for me to mention this for others.

Quote

Here is where I risk offending people, but I want to say it anyway, even though it will probably get me nowhere: I wish we could drop the name "Christian". I think it is too tied to old ideas and paradigms to be efficiently useful for people who, perhaps like me, are spiritual but don't want to be religious. So the 8 Points that state "We are Christians who..." automatically rules me out. I wish it would simply say, "We are people who..." or "We are a community that..." and leave the judgment (if necessary) of who is a Christian or what is Christian either to God or in the dust. Saying "We are Christians who...", at least for me, says that PCs, at heart, really don't think or act any different than other Christians...and I hope and pray that this is not the case.

Yes, I could try to "reclaim" the title or label of being a Christian; a "new kind of Christian" (thanks, Brian) or a "progressive Christian". But, at least for me, that is like saying that I no longer want to be called a "circle", that, due to a paradigm shift, I want to be known as a "square circle." Spong, despite the titles of his books, says that Christianity is dying, that a couple hundred years from now there will be no Christianity. I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, so I don't know how true his prediction will be. But I do feel that, in calling this website, this forum, and this group "Christians", walls are inherently erected and then time, effort, and bandwidth is spent defending those walls. Right or wrong, Christianity is seen as a religion about making converts. As long as TCPC uses the name "Christian", it will have to deal with ALL the baggage and misconceptions that go along with that name.

Whoever is reading this, thanks for listening.

Your welcome. Always enjoy reading your posts Bill and no offence taken. I guess there is no way to make everybody happy about the label. From my understanding there was a lot of discussion on this very thing when TCPC was founded back in 1994. You can find some info on the history here.

You are correct that many hold the label to old ideas. I guess that is their problem and need not concern us who it may not bother. As far as the label is concerned, perhaps "we are people who" is applicable and may even be 'more proper' for the time but then again many of these are Christians who progressed not necessarily to something new but to a clearer understanding of what they feel was in the beginning and more of what Jesus was all about. Why get hung up on a label or name either way? If we become too label conscious, we will lose sight of the teachings and as I always ask, Do you really think you can define a person by using just a handful of vowels and consonants? I think not. There will always be baggage and misconceptions. Personally, I am a PC who is less concerned with what other people think of a label they apply to me than who or what I consider myself. However, many people are offended by being told they are not a Christian when they consider themselves one and therefore it is a sensitive issue on this board. If we have love one for another then why would it be important to tell a person we do not believe they are what they consider themselves? Who are we to pass that judgement on our limited and subjective knowledge. It seems to me there is no edification in this.

Thanks for the post and opportunity to respond.

Love in Christ,
Joseph

[billmc]

JosephM, on 23 August 2009 - 09:20 PM, said:

Just a clarification, Actually this forum is not just for Christians.
...The forum is for all of the above and hosted by Progressive Christians.

Thank you for the clarification, Joseph. That helps me to ascertain a little bit better if/where I should post here.

Wouldn't it be nice if our churches were more like this? "This church is for all who want to be a part of our community, but it is hosted by Christians." Instead, it is, "If you want to be part of our community, you must first be a Christian." I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Jesus never insisted that someone become a Christian before they could start following him.