[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on Apr 9 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

Myron,
I'm confused about the bowing out. I'm very tired, so maybe I missed something. I was enjoying your posts, so I hope you're not really leaving! Have you read How Good Do We Have to Be? by Harold Kushner? It is very much along the same lines that you are pointing out -- how the Adam and Eve story is not as much about punishment as it is about the birth of free will.

Should we move on to Chapter 3, or does anyone have more on Chapter 2?

Sounds like another good read I'll have to add to my stack, Janet! Thanks!

We can move on if you like.

bill

[minsocal]

wayfarer2k, on Apr 10 2009, 04:05 AM, said:

Myron, there is no need or desire for you to "bow out." I'm not aware that I said "thank you for the conversation" to you. I did say it to Davidk because we had reached an impass in our discussion where he wanted me to agree with him on a point (in which I did not agree) and he refused to let it go. I tried, at least 2 times, to move the conversation forward and he would not. But we have not done that here in this thread, have we?

So please, let's continue.

BTW, I found what you had to say about the Song of Solomon to be interesting. Have you ever read "Sex God" by Rob Bell?

bill

I bowed out because dialogue here ends up being personal ... a quest for dominace, a will to power. I have no interests there. None!

minsocal

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

The message board is back up! Is anyone still interested in talking about chapter 3?

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I've struggled with this issue before, and I was greatly influenced by reading Kushner's "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People." I am much more comfortable with a God who is with us in our response to troubles instead of one that causes/allows troubles for reasons we don't understand.

I can see how people look back on their troubles and say, "I am a better person because of them, so maybe God sent that suffering so I could learn something." Indeed, I believe God can help us learn from troubles and often gives us the strength to do so, when on our own we would have given up.

Following is one of my favorite quotes of the chapter:

"For one, we seem to have the feeling that well-being is normal, that it is to be expected. No matter how often we may speak of counting our blessings, we usually do take them for granted. Though we would deny it, we feel that life "owes" us well-being and even happiness. Therefore suffering is felt as unfair and unjust, and our question of "Why?" takes on a moral tone that seeks an answer that would show us purpose and justice."

I do not deny that there is SERIOUS suffering in life. Right now I know some people who are REALLY going through it. But some of us make a big deal of the little things. Are you familiar with the song by Darryl Worley – Sounds Like Life to Me? The lyrics follow...



Got a call last night from an old friend’s wife
Said I hate to bother you
Johnny Ray fell off the wagon
He’s been gone all afternoon
I know my buddy so I drove to Skully’s
And found him at the bar
I say hey man, what’s going on
He said I don’t know where to start

Sarah’s old car’s about to fall apart
And the washer quit last week
We had to put momma in the nursing home
And the baby’s cutting teeth
I didn’t get much work this week
And I got bills to pay
I said I know this ain’t what you wanna hear
But it’s what I’m gonna say

[Chorus:]
Sounds like life to me it ain’t no fantasy
It’s just a common case of everyday reality
Man I know it’s tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk you’re caught up in some tragedy
It sounds like life to me

Well his face turned red and he shook his head
He said you don’t understand
Three kids and a wife depend on me
And I’m just one man
To top it off I just found out
That Sarah’s 2 months late
I said hey bartender set us up a round
We need to celebrate

[:Chorus:]
Sounds like life to me plain old destiny
Yeah the only thing for certain is uncertainty
You gotta hold on tight just enjoy the ride
Get used to all this unpredictability
Sounds like life

Man I know it’s tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk you’re caught up in some tragedy
Sounds like life to me
Sounds like life

[JosephM]

AllInTheNameOfProgress,

Thanks for the lyrics. Haven't heard that one before. Feel free to continue your take on the next chapters of the book. Billmc (wayfarer2k) is away for awhile but I hope to see him back soon. I'm sure others will join in.

Love Joseph

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on May 13 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

Sounds like life to me
Sounds like life

That's a good song, Janet. It has, to me, "real" lyrics. It also brought to my mind James Taylor's song, "Secret O' Life".

Alot of your excerpt grabbed my attention also, Janet. I grew up with an interpretation of Christianity and of God/Jesus where it was all about deliverance or being "saved". God was the Great Deliverer, a Mighty Fortress (protections), a Shelter in the Time of Storm, the Rock of Ages -- all images that implied that God's purpose or function was to protect us from harm, to shelter us from the harsh realities of life, to deliver us from the hardships of human existence and experience. Jesus was similarly portrayed as the Great Shepherd (who protects the flock), the Savior (who, of course, saves), the Messiah (who was expected to deliver God's people from evil), and other images that called to mind a divine Someone whose purpose was to protect us and shelter us from life.

But as I studied the Bible more thoroughly and as the experiences of my life opened my eyes, I've come to see that these images of God and Jesus, while powerful, just don't stand up to the overall testimonies of the scriptures or to the experiences of real life. Jesus said that in this world we would have trouble. And the testimony of many people in the Bible is that they suffered and died, that they were, in fact, not delivered as they hoped and prayed.

So my view is slowly shifting to be more like what you said, God and Jesus as companions in the sufferings, not delivers from them. It's my feeling that the question that really lies behind, "Why does God allow people to suffer?" is really, "Why I am alone in this?" Suffering screams to us that we are indeed alone. "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" But the testimonies of the New Testament scriptures is that God is always with us, even if it seems or feels like he is distant and uninvolved.

Nevertheless, having a bent toward practicality, I still can't help but wonder, "What different does it make to have a companion in the suffering rather than a deliverer from it?" Being human, I would rather have a deliver. But I've lived long enough and seen enough suffering to know that God simply doesn't "come through" like we often expect him to, saving the day for us. People that most impress me -- people like Bonhoeffer, Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghandhi, Mother Theresa, Saint Patrick -- were not those who were "victorious in Christ" with God showing up to rescue them from suffering, but, rather, they endured suffering -- not for their own sins, but for the sake of the oppressed that they chose to be associated with.

It's for this reason that I wish Christianity would give up the language of deliverance and "saving". I would rather that it embrace the language of empowerment, of companionship, of faithfulness to the suffering. Such wishes on my part are, most likely, just wishful thinking. But if Christians stopped portraying God as their divine "Genie in a bottle", maybe more Christians would not be so easily shaken when hardships come and Jesus fails to show up as their personal Lone Ranger.

bill mc

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

"What different does it make to have a companion in the suffering rather than a deliverer from it?"

Good question! For me, it is because God calls me to be greater than I am. Left alone, I would wallow in self pity. God gives the strength, wisdom, energy to deal with the suffering.

I have struggled long with the "salvation/deliverer" language for the same reason. Jesus saves me by setting me free from old destructive patterns in my life. Often times Jesus delivers me by helping me turn enemies into friends or at least civil relations.

My brother in law is in chronic pain at age 48. He thinks God has either abandoned him or is punishing him. His wife is forwarding every one of those spiritual emails, looking for good luck and doesn't understand why God isn't healing her husband. They are trying everything they can!! I forwarded some of Chapter 3 to them, and I hope it provides some comfort. Redefining life in the midst of tragedy just sucks!! My heart goes out.

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on May 14 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Left alone, I would wallow in self pity. God gives the strength, wisdom, energy to deal with the suffering. Jesus saves me by setting me free from old destructive patterns in my life.

This makes sense to me, Janet - that Jesus delivers us, not by changing our circumstances, but by changing us. Often, when Christians are praying for "God's will to be done", they seem to be saying, "Well, God, whatever the circumstance, I'll just try to accept it as Your will and get through it." Or we pray that God will change the circumstance and leave us unchanged when maybe he wants to leave the circumstance unchanged and change us.

On one hand, people could say this is all just a copout because, in reality, God doesn't "show up" and save the day, therefore proving that he doesn't exist. There is a semi-popular book called "The God Who Wasn't There" that tries to make the case that the "interventionist God" does come through for us on behalf of our prayers and struggles and, therefore, God is just a figment of our imaginations.

While I have known people who have become bitter because God didn't show up, I have also known people who have become better because of their trials and sufferings. I wouldn't be comfortable making any hard, fast rules as to why some become bitter and some become better, but I can't help but think that it has something to do with the kind of God that we envision and the expectations we have of him. Those who expect nothing are seldom disappointed. Ha ha!

Obviously, I'm still perhaps wrestling and pondering all this stuff myself. Not because I have really suffered (because I haven't) but because the question of theodicy seems to be an important one to the postmodern generation who wonders why a good God would let people suffer. I don't think there is a magic bullet answer to this question, but I do think that maybe SOME of the suffering is a result, not of God's failure to intervene, but of our failure to.

bill mc

[JosephM]

Suffering is always an interesting concept with widely different opinions on why we suffer. The way I see it is quite different than most so the view is my own and just for consideration. There was a time when I got sick or experienced pain, I suffered. When I didn't get my way, I suffered. When I experienced a loss, I suffered. Well now, nothing has really changed , I occasionally get sick and I still have pain from time to time and over the last year I had a great loss of retirement money in the stock market and lost both my parents. I now unconditionally accept what life brings me and no longer have a sense of suffering. I accept what is and if it is in my power to change it I do and if not, I am not distressed nor do I experience mental anguish unless of course I choose to resist and refuse to accept my situation.

To me, suffering is a subjective decision. To a poor and hungry person a bowl of plain rice is a real treat. To a rich person who is used to an elegant dinner and deserts, getting just plain rice for dinner is suffering.

In my view, undesirable things happen to everyone but if one is able to look at all things with equanimity and considering all things that happen to him as an acceptable part of the moment, trusting his being to his very source of life (God), there is no suffering for him/her. Now many people may say then how will change take place with this attitude? To me, accepting the moment doesn't preclude change from taking place but rather puts one on a path of no mind resistance for what is, so one can get on and think clearly to rectify the situation if possible. I am of course not advocating indifference to the suffering of others which some can construe this to mean but merely pointing out that effective and positive lasting change can only come from the calmness of mind that comes from acceptance and non resistance to the reality of the problem that exists now.

Out of this acceptance, wisdom comes and suffering ( the bearing of pain or distress on ones part) disappears. It is recorded Jesus said , "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." I believe that trials and pain may continue as long as we are here in this world but in that 'rest' there is no mental bearing of pain or distress or it would not be called rest.

Just a view to consider,
Joseph

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Both your replies gave me new insights. Bill, changing (lowering) my expectations of people and situations has resulted in much new peace in my life. Joseph, the explanation of how suffering disappears was fascinating. At first it sounded like eastern philosopy to me, so I really appreciated the link to Jesus' teachings.

Should we rush on to Chapter 4, or do we want to discuss Chapter 3 more?

[JosephM]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on May 16 2009, 01:49 AM, said:

Both your replies gave me new insights. Bill, changing (lowering) my expectations of people and situations has resulted in much new peace in my life. Joseph, the explanation of how suffering disappears was fascinating. At first it sounded like eastern philosopy to me, so I really appreciated the link to Jesus' teachings.

Should we rush on to Chapter 4, or do we want to discuss Chapter 3 more?

Janet,

Even some of the Pauline writings speak of this rest like Hebrews Chapter 4. Paul is recorded saying.. "There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. ¹⁰ For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His."(KJV) ¹¹ Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

In my experience it is eastern and western together as in western thought it seems to require a disidentification with the old creature (figurative) and an identification with the new creature in Christ which is hid in God where the rest resides by faith. Whereas (Eastern thought might call this Absolute reality or the Unconditioned) Here in this rest one is aware one has a body and mind but one is also aware that one is not the body or thinking mind but something more that cannot be moved by adversity so that suffering in a sense is extinguished. It is my view in western words that this is entering the kingdom of heaven here on earth and in eastern teachings described as enlightenment or 'Satori' which is kind of a temporary state of enlightenment which I am more familiar with.

Love Joseph

[McKenna]

Hey all,

I haven't been on the boards in a few months but I just read through all the posts and got caught up on the reading and I'm excited to join in the continuing discussion if that's ok!

-McKenna

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Chapter 4:
"Jesus did in fact perform faith healings, at least early in his ministry, and that he intended them as "signs". For instance, the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 is specifically intended "that you may know that the son of man [i.e., himself] has authority on earth to forgive sins," However, it developed that people were more interested in the signs themselves than in what the signs pointed to. That is, people were more interested in the apparently miraculous healings than in Jesus’ message to which the healings were supposed to bear witness. People came seeking signs, not to hear about repentance and forgiveness and love. They came seeking entertainment, not truth; a spectacle, not a way to live. No observer of humanity can be the least bit surprised at this."

Welcome McKenna! I'm glad you're joining in, and we should keep encouraging others to read this. Most of this chapter was not new to me, because I have studied Bultmann before. I find myself agreeing with several of the positions presented in this chapter:

I think Jesus was able to help people with physical and spiritual ailments. I think some of the reported miracles may have a scientific explanation, given that the Bible came from a pre-scientific worldview. I think some of the miracles may have been exaggerated to lend creedance to the divinity of Jesus. Right now the miracle stories are not the ones I learn the most from when reading the Bible, although metaphorically I can see how Jesus "sets me free" from destructive patterns of behavior or how Jesus can assist in miraculous life changes.

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

Joseph,
Thank you for helping me relate the Christian and eastern terms. My confusion before with "enlightenment" as a goal was that alone it doesn't seem to imply action to help others, which I can see as one of Christianity's central messages. If we are going to discuss this further, it may belong on a page of its own. I have a desire to understand each of the world's religions better and find what commonality we can.

[JosephM]

That is a good idea Janet. I am enroute from Florida to home right now but when I get home I will give it my attention to start a new thread concerning similarities unless someone starts one before I arrive.

Joseph

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on May 17 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

I think some of the miracles may have been exaggerated to lend creedance to the divinity of Jesus. Right now the miracle stories are not the ones I learn the most from when reading the Bible, although metaphorically I can see how Jesus "sets me free" from destructive patterns of behavior or how Jesus can assist in miraculous life changes.

I'm with you on this, Janet. For me, most of the miracle stories get in the way of my faith, mainly because I don't see God or Jesus doing the same thing nowadays. So the miracles, if taken literally, make me wonder where God/Jesus went, especially as Jesus says his followers would be able to do even greater things than he did.

On one hand, I believe in miracles as life-giving or life-affirming epiphanies or experiences. Me finding a wife was a miracle. Seeing the birth of our children was, for me, a miracle. It is participating in sacred events in life, things which remind us how small and yet valuable we are.

But on the other hand, my definition of miracles has little to do with the way they are portrayed in the Bible. In the scriptures, miracles are the suspension of the laws of nature or physics in order for God to do a supernatural act, intervening from outside our world instead of working from inside it. I'm very much a skeptic when it comes to these types of miracles. Why? Because, even as the scriptures say, despite all their flashiness, they are not really very transformative. And secondly, they no longer happen, if they ever did. God just doesn't seem to work that way.

In church yesterday, the pastor thanked God for the rain. I guess that's an okay thing to do if one thinks of rain as part of the natural process of our world that God set up. But I get fidgety when weather is spoken of as God acting from outside our world to either make it rain or make a drought. I just don't think it works that way. Then God becomes directly responsible for tsunamis and tornadoes. So I find it a little odd to make it a point to thank God for the rain as something that, like Zeus' lightning bolts, comes directly from heaven. Most of the other people that I sit next to in church aren't as crazy as I am, though, so I'm sure they're comfortable with it.

Well, I've gone to rambling again so I'll comment further after I've reread the chapter.

Looking forward to hearing from Mckenna. Jump in at any point!

bill

[billmc]

A personal reflection: When I was younger, I was in the charismatic movement, Pentecostal Holiness to be exact. These folks believed that “the age of miracles” was not over and that God was still in the miracle-working business. It was very exciting to me to believe that after 2000 years, God had not changed, that Jesus truly was the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that God would do today what he did in Bible times…if one had enough faith.

While in the movement, I heard of a lot of faith healings and miracles. But upon reflection, the healings all seemed to be of the unverifiable variety – head-aches going away, menstrual cramps disappearing, the disappearance of pain in a joint after the elders have anointed the head with oil and prayed, etc. None of what I ever saw of healings was of the “miraculous” kind that the Bible portrays – the blind seeing, lepers healed, the deaf hearing, the dead rising again. So while these good folks claimed that the age of miracles was not over and that God still healed, everything I witnesses was either unverifiable or very small potatoes compared to what Jesus allegedly did.

On the one or two occasions where I actually dared to question why we didn’t see the kind of miracles nowadays that we do when Jesus walked the earth, the answers I was given fell into these categories:

1. We live in an evil age when no one has the faith for God to work like he did during Jesus’ day.

My response: Jesus called his own age an evil age and called his generation a wicked and adulterous one. That didn’t stop him for doing miracles (according to the text). And while there are instances where faith seemed to be required, there are also plenty of instances where Jesus simply healed people because he wanted to.

2. Miracles are distracting to real faith in Jesus and in God. People tend to follow the miracle-workers for the miracles themselves instead of for a relationship with God.

My response: Okay, so what? It happened in Jesus’ day too, didn’t it? It didn’t stop him. After all, if he was God, then he would have known exactly how the whole miracles thing would have played out from the beginning of time. He would have known what a distraction to real faith miracles are. But according to the text, he did them anyway.

3. It simply wasn’t God’s will for a miracle in this instance.

My response: Ohh, sticky one. After all, the elders were called for. The oil was dispensed. Two or three agreed on earth. Faith was demonstrated. All of the biblical “prerequisites” to a healing were met. But still no healing came. Therefore, God’s sovereignty is appealed to? Gimme a break. If God sets up a condition and conditions are met and he fails to hold up to his end, then he has lied about what he said he would do.

Non-charismatic Christians don’t seem to focus too much on miracle healings. Sure, they pray for healing, of course. It would seem callous and uncaring not to, wouldn’t it? But they make sure that they stress that they are ASKING for a healing and that God’s will will be done regardless of whether a healing takes place or not. Or, in some cases, they simply say that we live in a different dispensation when God no longer does the miracles because we have the canon of scriptures and we should believe that.

Sorry to be so blunt, but all of these “excuses” for the lack of miracles are, in my opinion, a bunch of crap. I’ve seen doctors do more “healings” than God does. Christians are so quick, after a successful surgery or dose of pills to thank God for the healing while criticizing the doctors and nurses for charging too much. The doctors do all the work, God gets all the credit.

Maybe God does still do healings of the miraculous kind. But I’ve never see it. I’ve never seen an amputated limb grow back…or someone who has been dead for three days come back to life…or someone cured of cancer with no help whatsoever from the medical community. Maybe some people have seen these things. If so, then good for them. But I’m too postmodern to think that something God did in one person out of 500,000 “proves” that God still works miracles.

So, in a way, if the "miracle-working God" portrayed in the Bible doesn't exist, then it opens the door to question whether God exists at all, doesn't it?

billmc

This post has been edited by billmc: 18 May 2009 - 11:40 AM

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I suppose it does open the door, which is why so many have decided to throw it all out, without checking to see what is baby and what is bathwater.

I agree with your perspective, Bill, that miracles are in the transforming events that cause life and love and goodness to triumph. Miracles can be seen when someone helps another for no benefit.

All of us see God only dimly. The Bible is one way to see God through a pre-scientific filter. In my opinion that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, but rather that God is too awesome to fully capture with human language. And we all come from our own perspectives, so the language is heard with the hearer's ears anyway.

God doesn't need propping up with exaggerated stories of miracles. Following Jesus has transformed me. That is miracle enough.

[billmc]

AllInTheNameOfProgress, on May 18 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

I suppose it does open the door, which is why so many have decided to throw it all out, without checking to see what is baby and what is bathwater.

I agree with your perspective, Bill, that miracles are in the transforming events that cause life and love and goodness to triumph. Miracles can be seen when someone helps another for no benefit.

All of us see God only dimly. The Bible is one way to see God through a pre-scientific filter. In my opinion that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, but rather that God is too awesome to fully capture with human language. And we all come from our own perspectives, so the language is heard with the hearer's ears anyway.

God doesn't need propping up with exaggerated stories of miracles. Following Jesus has transformed me. That is miracle enough.

To be honest, Janet, I'm quite tempted to throw it all out also. Historical Jesus scholarship tells us that we can't know very much about the "baby" at all, only other's impressions of him. We can't be sure of what the "baby" said or did or did not say or do. In short, there is no way to reliably tell what is baby and what is bathwater.

While my definition of miracles works for me, again, it doesn't hardly line up with the scriptural or tradition definitions, and I don't need a "God" to experience them or explain them.

So I kinda feel like a child who has just discovered that Santa Claus isn't real. He was just made up to help keep me in line or to convey some type of spirit of good will, not a bad thing, of course, but just something with no basis in reality. And, again to be honest, it is heartbreaking to know that something one has believed all one's life is just a figment of the imagination, just a fairy tale to help keep imaginary boogiemen away. There is a certain amount of tragedy in no longer believing in Santa Claus, in throwing out the bathwater and discovering that the baby wasn't what one was told that he was.

Who or what God is, at least for me, isn't the kind of God I find in the books of the Bible, not even in some of the portrayals of God put forth by Jesus. Sadly, the Bible itself doesn't give us much option for exploring "another" kind of God. According to the Bible, if you don't believe in the kind of God found there, you go to hell without even passing GO and getting $200.

Perhaps I am mourning "the death of God" in my life, I don't know. Maybe I just took all this God, Jesus, Bible, and religion stuff way too seriously to begin with, especially with being told that heaven and hell were in the balance. But I just find very little baby left to believe in or even to follow. I'm one month away from my 50th birthday and it has taken me half a century to realize that I've wasted my life on a farce.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

bill mc

[JosephM]

Bill,

Just my opinion but I don't think you wasted half your life. It brought you to where you are now and perhaps there was no other way. Finding out about Santa Clause is a part of growing up. You broke loose from fundamentalism and fairy tales. You are making progress on your individual journey which is unique, sometimes very lonesome and scary but I have confidence that whatever is working in you will do so to its completion.

Love Joseph