[Flatliner]

Hi all,
I'm interested in your thoughts on this one (understanding of course that this is a progressive christian site).

I've been coming out of conservative christianity, exploring faith (outside of a church community) and shedding many of the beliefs and 'truths' I once held. The thing is, I'm actually wondering if I'm really christian at all anymore. Although I've shed a load of old baggage and teachings, my faith feels like it's expanded rather than shrunk and I it doesn't seem 'contained' or confined exlusively to christian beliefs. I've been reading a lot = Spong, Borg, Tao te Ching, Alan Watts, Joseph Campbell.

It got me thinking about what there is about my faith that would make me count myself as christian.
Please understand, I'm not searching for a label or a 'new' label, I'm just interested in exploring what remnant of christianity remains (for me) and whether the christian faith is really the basis of my faith or an interesting sideline. At the moment, my faith and belief in something spiritual is pretty raw, basic and simple - I believe there is some godlike entity all around us that has been (and continues to be) expressed and explored by people and civilisations in various ways. Okay, that's about all I'm standing on right now.

I'm interested to hear what you think:
- Is this part of the deconstruction that happens when you start out of the conservative church - questioning everything?
- Is this familiar territory to you?
- Is there a particular issue/belief that is your cornerstone (so to speak) that you define yourself as christian?

Thanks for your patience!

[JosephM]

Flatliner, on Oct 2 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

(snip)

I'm interested to hear what you think:
- Is this part of the deconstruction that happens when you start out of the conservative church - questioning everything?
- Is this familiar territory to you?
- Is there a particular issue/belief that is your cornerstone (so to speak) that you define yourself as christian?

Thanks for your patience!

Hi Flatliner,

- Yes it seems to me it is part of the deconstruction. To me it seems that In the past we had an experience and then let the church system build a building (us) with all the nice answers that have been past down and modified to fit that particular denomination. Then there comes a point of awakening when we realize that all we have are a bunch of beliefs that we have been conditioned to believe. A difficult period of confusion arises and if we are fortunate we don't fall back and Deconstruction starts and makes space for the building to be built by God. (metaphor of course) Actually the building is already there and complete. We are just removing old dirt and rubble so we can see it.

- yes, it is most familiar.

- It really doesn't matter to me though I will answer as Christian or sometimes anything else I am called. As you know, it is only a label anyway and reveals no depth of who you are. I have been called Gnostic, Mystic, Satan, conservative, liberal, Christian, Buddhist, ignorant and a host of other labels. To me, to think that a label using vowels and consonants can define oneself is truly ignorance. This is not said or meant to offend anyone. It is only my honest perception as I see it.

Flatliner, I remember the first post you made on this site and i can now 'see' more peace and Christ in you and your life than ever before.

Love in Christ,
Joseph

[billmc]

I can relate to some of your process, Flatliner. I, too, am wondering what is left of my faith after a couple of years of deconstruction.

I was raised Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal Holiness, and then Southern Baptist. So my religious background is very conservative, having been saved and baptized when I was 12. In my early forties, due to a series of personal events in my life which I won’t go into at this time, I started to deconstruct my faith and my experiences. I no longer found my faith worth believing. It no longer made sense to me nor answered the questions about life that entering my middle-age years was forcing me to ask. And I also seriously doubted the validity of my “experiences with God”, knowing that most of it was due to cultural (albeit Christian culture) pressures to conform.

What is left now? I’m not sure. I’m still in deconstruction, I guess. I know more of what I don’t believe than of what I do.

I don’t believe in a mystical Christ. I believe that Jesus was a human who taught a counter-cultural way of life that would be good for individuals and society if adopted. But I don’t believe he came to pay for sins or to secure us a place in heaven. And I believe he is dead.

I don’t believe that God is a person-like being “up there” who controls the world. If he exists, he is not a he. He is the life itself that surrounds us. But this belief, of course, goes against the Christian belief in 3 divine persons.

I don’t believe in heaven and hell as literal places. I suspect they are metaphors for feeling at one with God or apart from him.

I don’t believe that the church is very Christ-like. I think if Jesus were alive today, the last place he would attend on Sunday morning is the church. Our churches envision themselves as temples and “houses of God”. Jesus had very few good things to say about this kind of “God in the box” theology. The only times, that we know of, that he went to the temple was to clean it.

I recently told someone that, when it comes to my Christianity, I’ve thrown out the bath water and not found a baby. To a large extent, that is true for me. There is little of my faith left that conservative Christians would call Christian. I don’t believe in Jesus as a mystical guide or as a savior or as a sinless sacrifice. Instead, he is, for me, an example of someone who allowed the fruit of the Spirit to flow through his life to such an extent that he made a difference in this world (versus securing the next). But most Christians would reject my current understanding. That’s okay. As Gandhi once said about Christianity, “I like your Christ, but I don’t very much like your Christians, because they are not much like him.”

I do want to be more like Jesus. But I am not convinced that Christianity or being a Christian is a way to get there.

[October's Autumn]

I'm interested to hear what you think:
- Is this part of the deconstruction that happens when you start out of the conservative church - questioning everything?

Yes. It is part of the deconstruction.

- Is this familiar territory to you?

Very familiar, and, imo, very necessary.

- Is there a particular issue/belief that is your cornerstone (so to speak) that you define yourself as christian?

I'm still hesitant to use that label since it is so laden. For a long time I just chose to be undefined. My beliefs are more Jewish than they are traditional Christian. I started going to church again (a UCC) about 4 years ago. I still am not comfortable with the label of "Christian", for basically the same reason. I'm a tad more comfortable telling people I go to church.

[October's Autumn]

You have such a great post I wanted to respond to it.

"I know more of what I don't believe than of what I do."

Same here. At this point is it more healthful to define myself by what I'm not and what I don't believe rather than grabbing a new bunch of beliefs.

"I don't believe in a mystical Christ. I believe that Jesus was a human who taught a counter-cultural way of life that would be good for individuals and society if adopted. But I don't believe he came to pay for sins or to secure us a place in heaven. And I believe he is dead."

Ditto.

"I don't believe that God is a person-like being "up there" who controls the world. If he exists, he is not a he."

Ditto, again.



"I don't believe in heaven and hell as literal places. "

Ditto to half of the original statement. (I deleted the part that I'm don't have an opinion about).

"I don't believe that the church is very Christ-like. I think if Jesus were alive today, the last place he would attend on Sunday morning is the church. "
Agreed. I think he'd be more likely to go to a Synagogue

" I've thrown out the bath water and not found a baby. "

That is an excellent description.

"I do want to be more like Jesus. But I am not convinced that Christianity or being a Christian is a way to get there. "

I like how you say this.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! They were very helpful to me.

[Flatliner]

Thanks Joseph, Wayfarer and OA !
It's good to know that others have experienced the confusion and questioning that goes with the deconstruction process. Interesting too that there is no defined path 'out' - which would just be another trap I guess, and I fully anticipate there is no end point either.

Thanks for sharing your experiences here, I'm grateful to be able to express these ideas in a place where I don't sound too kooky. As well as leaving the church community, I have very little contact with any people from any church background (would it be awful to say I avoid it? ).

Thanks Joseph for your kind words on seeing me at peace - I certainly feel much better than I ever have despite not having anything to cling to.

Wayfarer and OA - I agree with many of the things you've expressed on this thread - I'm encouraged by your response.

It's strange though isn't it?
- I am 'sure' and 'certain' of much less than I used to be, but instead of being scared I feel much more solid
- I am 'outside' church community and 'fellowship', yet feel more 'connected' to "god" than ever before.
- I don't pray anymore and don't feel like I have to, but somehow I feel heard
- I don't read the bible at all but hear constant echoes throughout the Tao and other texts
- I don't have a plan for the future anymore, but don't worry about it either.

Thanks all for posting your thoughts,

Flat

[billmc]

October, on Oct 2 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! They were very helpful to me.

You're welcome. I appreciate yours also.

A couple more thoughts and then a few questions:

For me, being a Christian or being part of Christianity mainly had to do with beliefs about Jesus – his divinity, his death, his resurrection, his return, etc. I found Christians and Christianity to be belief-focused, often with the goal of believing in things that, for anyone or anything else, we would find to be untenable. And God would judge us depending on how well we believed in things that we would reject under natural revelation/conditions. I reached a point in my journey where I felt that Christianity was a religion in which the primary goal was to believe in non-sense. And I could no longer do so. I found my heart could not believe in what my mind rejected.

In my deconstruction, I lean more towards seeing my journey, not as a set of beliefs, but as a way of living. I feel like Jesus did not come to give humanity a set of beliefs about himself or even to try to get us to believe in the “impossible”. Rather, I think he came to show us a way of living life in which God (as Compassion) flowed into and through us to make us and our world better. Didn’t he say that true religion (worship and service to God) was taking care of widows and orphans? To me, this has little to do with a set of beliefs; it has to do with following a way of life that is less selfish, more in touch with the needs of others.

Strictly speaking, Jesus didn’t teach Christianity or call anyone to be a Christian. But he did call people to follow him and to live as he did. Somehow, this first “Jesus Movement” changed from following Jesus to believing in Christ. (That’s a subject worthy of a thread all its own.) And I find modern Christianity to be far more into “believing in Christ” than into following him and his teachings. So the label doesn’t much appeal to me anymore. Maybe it could be recovered at some point, I don’t know.

Anyway, OA, what is it about Judaism and the synagogue that nourishes you? Please forgive my ignorance, I’ve never been to synagogue and all I know about Judaism stems primarily from my studies of the OT and the NT. Does modern synagogue allow Gentiles in? Do they enforce following OT law? What is the community like there? What does being part of that faith/community do for you that Christianity didn’t?

Hope you don’t mind the questions. I’m a very curious person.

[soma]

Quote

INTO this dark night souls begin to enter when God draws them forth from the state of beginners- which is the state of those that meditate on the spiritual road- and begins to set them in the state of progressives- which is that of those who are already contemplatives- to the end that, after passing through it, they may arrive at the state of the perfect, which is that of the Divine union of the soul with God.

DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL by Saint John of the Cross

Flatliner welcome to invisible spiritual nature, which harmonizes, balances, cultivates and brings forth the good in our body and mind. I am glad you discovered and associate with God's pure consciousness within a harmonious state of mind, body and affairs. This takes courage to no longer be dependent on the created world, subject to its pain and hardship. After becoming more and more involved with the external world and experiencing pain, we have all struggled with the flesh, and questions to once again struggle for happiness. The nature of the flesh being self-centered, possessive, fearful, and always trying to force its will on others after suffering in the world, finally returns our mind on a direction back through individual consciousness to a path leading to the soul. Many try to steer us off course, but sooner or later we find the path in the deepest dark night of our soul. This suffering makes us not happy with the material world so our minds lead us back through the depths of our own being to the kingdom of God. God is guiding you through this Dark Night of the Soul. I admire you for being responsible, and taking up such a path. We are all here to shed light on our spiritual journeys. I look forward to your gems of sparkling light.

[tinythinker]

2 CENTS:

The path of uncompromising honest inquiry can take you many places, so long as you don't get bogged down on a sand bank from over-correcting your course (the tension of the dialectical inquiry). I went from conservative Christianity to deism to agnosticism to bitter atheism to secular seeker to secular Buddhist to spiritual Buddhist to interfaith mystical inquirer and have been heading back towards Christianity from a completely new direction. Labels and social/mental constructions come and go - stay true to your heart and keep a clear head.

[billmc]

tinythinker, on Nov 8 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

Labels and social/mental constructions come and go - stay true to your heart and keep a clear head.

True, TinyThinker, but...for those in deconstruction, the heart is filled with conflicting emotions and the head with conflicting ideas.

For instance, in my own journey when I gave up theism, my heart was broken. I realized there was no "God up there" who was watching me, who had a plan for my life, who would ensure that I would be with him forevermore. In my heart, it was as if God died. I no longer believe in a father-figure in the sky who answers prayer, heals, and will fix everything according to his divine will. It is all the more tragic when I realize that Jesus himself did believe in such a father-figure.

I had realitively little struggle letting go of some doctrines and biblical passages that, to me, either didn't make sense or were downright immoral. Nonsensical doctrines like the trinity, the incarnation, the atonement, the resurrection. Immoral passages like God destroying all of humanity, telling the Israelites to kill women and children, giving laws for slaves, treating women like property instead of like partners. All of these things my head and heart could give up, in fact, needed to.

But when it came to my "hero", Jesus, it was much more difficult to sort things out. And it still is. On some level, I am still in love with him. I think many of his teachings and actions are very loving, giving me sort of an example to follow. But on the other hand, he threatened people with everlasting torment in flames, he completely misjudged when he would return, he failed to fulfill many of the prophecies that messiah was supposed to fulfill, he was angry much of the time and demeaned his disciples for not understanding his teachings. And then the last book of the bible does not end with "gentle Jesus, meek and mild" but with a holy-jihad type of warrior who returns to slay most of humanity.

All of this makes it hard for one to know how to interpret Jesus. All of the fluff aside, to me being a Christian means believing what Jesus taught and trying to live out those teachings to the best of my ability. But the bottom line is that I don't agree with a number of things that Jesus taught and I don't think the bible always portrays him as a "God of love."

So I don't know if I am a Christian any longer. I suppose if I could "pick-and-choose" which parts of Jesus and his teachings I like and then discard the rest, I could call myself a Christian. But Christianity seems to call for an "all or nothing" approach to Jesus, not a critical approach.

It is an interesting and frustrating dilemma, one which I may never solve. Sometimes I wish I could just turn off my head and "believe", not questioning anything. But then I wouldn't be true to myself. And the church already has enough hypocrites.

bill

[JosephM]

wayfarer2k, on Nov 25 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

True, TinyThinker, but...for those in deconstruction, the heart is filled with conflicting emotions and the head with conflicting ideas.

For instance, in my own journey when I gave up theism, my heart was broken. I realized there was no "God up there" who was watching me, who had a plan for my life, who would ensure that I would be with him forevermore. In my heart, it was as if God died. I no longer believe in a father-figure in the sky who answers prayer, heals, and will fix everything according to his divine will. It is all the more tragic when I realize that Jesus himself did believe in such a father-figure.

I had realitively little struggle letting go of some doctrines and biblical passages that, to me, either didn't make sense or were downright immoral. Nonsensical doctrines like the trinity, the incarnation, the atonement, the resurrection. Immoral passages like God destroying all of humanity, telling the Israelites to kill women and children, giving laws for slaves, treating women like property instead of like partners. All of these things my head and heart could give up, in fact, needed to.

But when it came to my "hero", Jesus, it was much more difficult to sort things out. And it still is. On some level, I am still in love with him. I think many of his teachings and actions are very loving, giving me sort of an example to follow. But on the other hand, he threatened people with everlasting torment in flames, he completely misjudged when he would return, he failed to fulfill many of the prophecies that messiah was supposed to fulfill, he was angry much of the time and demeaned his disciples for not understanding his teachings. And then the last book of the bible does not end with "gentle Jesus, meek and mild" but with a holy-jihad type of warrior who returns to slay most of humanity.

All of this makes it hard for one to know how to interpret Jesus. All of the fluff aside, to me being a Christian means believing what Jesus taught and trying to live out those teachings to the best of my ability. But the bottom line is that I don't agree with a number of things that Jesus taught and I don't think the bible always portrays him as a "God of love."

So I don't know if I am a Christian any longer. I suppose if I could "pick-and-choose" which parts of Jesus and his teachings I like and then discard the rest, I could call myself a Christian. But Christianity seems to call for an "all or nothing" approach to Jesus, not a critical approach.

It is an interesting and frustrating dilemma, one which I may never solve. Sometimes I wish I could just turn off my head and "believe", not questioning anything. But then I wouldn't be true to myself. And the church already has enough hypocrites.

bill

Hi Bill,

Glad to see you back. I know at one time time I felt similar to what you describe. It felt like my world was falling apart also. And one could say it really was. Perhaps that is why Paul spoke if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new and Jesus is recorded speaking of being in the world but not of. Perhaps this is the end of the world Jesus spoke of and the beginning of a new but not in a literal physical sense.

Personally I see no problem with as you say "picking and choosing" though many might not agree. It doesn't have to be all true or all false. After all it is a record of men concerning God, not God.

It seems to me that there is no need to interpret Jesus. One can merely take that which is quickened inside and of benefit to you and let the rest lie where it is. Perhaps it will make sense at a later time or perhaps not. If you follow after that which brings peace, how can one go wrong.

As far as healing and prayer being answered, personally I would not throw that out. If God exists in and through you then that potential is available to you. It is just as much alive today and it was 2000 years ago. Because you now realize that "there was no "God up there" who was watching me, who had a plan for my life, who would ensure that I would be with him forevermore. " does not negate answers to prayers or healing or a divine order. We really do not know what Jesus actually believed or not. We can only look at a record of what other men supposedly wrote of him which points us to look within to in a sense find our "Father" in a figurative sense.

Anyway, its good to read your words once again and I am confident that things will work out for you as you walk through this fire before you,

Love Joseph

[soma]

Bill, I am in love with the same Jesus as you. I feel he came in the flesh to transform us above materialism to a spiritual understanding and an experience with God. He did not reject anything as others would like us to believe instead he told stories to help bring others to an intimate union with everything. When explained with reason, the content of these stories demonstrates the inner meaning of the universe and human life. Primarily, these stories tell us who we are and how we should behave, providing us a way to self-understanding by serving the intellect’s desire to know about the beginning of creation and human life itself. Our intelligence has a vitally important part to play in answering these fundamental questions that preserve our mental and spiritual health. It is our life intelligence that guides us through the crises of birth, puberty, marriage, suffering and death; it also leads us to reflect on our inner life and our relationship to every man and woman. The intellect can give us a glimpse of the spiritual life inside ourselves, help us resist the exterior influences that blind us with passion and help us access thoughts about God that are totally new, unexpected and beyond our own capacity. The effect of these inspirations is to enable the soul to approach God beyond the material realm in pure consciousness where everything is one. You don't have to love Jesus to get there and I see you have found your way. It seems we have all had similar experiences, which have deepened our thoughts and love. Thank you for sharing the thoughts with in that have molded you spiritual experience that gives light to us all. Thanks

[billmc]

soma, on Nov 26 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

I see you have found your way. It seems we have all had similar experiences, which have deepened our thoughts and love.

Well, soma, I'm "finding," not "have found." Truth be known, some days I am an atheist, some an agnostic, and some still a Christian. I'm a chameleon based upon what my heart and head is telling me on a particular day. This doesn't mean, I hope, that I am schizophrenic, just that I am rather eclectic in my beliefs, actions, and control framework. And though I often get very frustrated with myself for not being able to carve everything into stone, I've lived with that tension most of my life. I can almost always see two (or more) sides to every issue and think that progress is made through communication, not in the digging in of one's heels.

The frustrating thing that I find in Christianity is that, especially where I live, the Christian religion does not make allowances for people like me. I am in the Texas Bible-belt where even the Episcopalians are pulling out of that denomination because the denomination refuses to dig in its heels on certain social/religious issues. The liberal Christians in my area are "going back to the bible" to try to decide issues on the scriptures ALONE. And that scares the hell out of me because the scriptures sanction some archaic, primitive approaches to social issues.

But it is not only the social issues. It is the pressure to conform down here that is...well...offensive. To join a church in this area, the minister always has to read off a checklist to see if a prospective member agrees with the propositions on that list or not. Such list have little to do with "the fruit of the spirit" or loving one's neighbor. They have to do with creeds, doctrinal statements, and church policies. One can sit in a Sunday School class filled with people who are gossipping and back-biting others and as long as these people "believe Jesus died and rose again", they are a-okay in the church, leaders of the church, in fact. My gosh, what has happened to common decency, let alone the fruit of the spirit?

I myself am not free from such things either. But it is frustrating to be continually judged as to one's "Christianity" based upon either mental assent to propositions or the ability to "not rock the boat" by asking hard questions of a belief system.

My love for Jesus was based upon a child-like faith. After all, the Christianity of my roots only told me the "good stories" of Jesus. Many of these stories I still love.

Joseph is right that it doesn't really matter whether we call ourselves a Christian or not. But at the same time, in my part of America Christianity is a tradition to support personal egos and rigid social structure that guises itself as religion, not a means for personal and social transformation. Those who are changing or who are in change are not welcome (unless the change is to become like "they" are).

The only "church" in my area that does seem to be about change is a Unitarian Universal church. And, as could be expected, they do not call themselves Christian.

It is an interesting dilemma.

[soma]

Bill, it is great that you have not submitted to an external authority, a book, or a rigid church that divides and eliminates, but an inward realization of God that unites. I like that you test your realization with reason, witness it at work and perceive the unity of everything. I say you have found the way because it seems you are communicating directly with God. This communication is not only in your contemplation, but by means of intuition, moods, ideas and hopes. I am glad you are strong enough to follow these strong feelings that are responsible for your actions. We are guided by the same force that keeps the planets in place and God's pure consciousness is directing us to peace and happiness.

You have found the path to God's Reality where one can't take a certain drug, do special exercises, go through a particular mental process or go to a particular church. The peace and tranquility in this Reality is only experienced within oneself.

Enjoy the Holidays!

[billmc]

I hope you have good holidays also, Soma!

soma, on Nov 28 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

Bill, it is great that you have not submitted to an external authority, a book, or a rigid church that divides and eliminates, but an inward realization of God that unites.

It's taken me a while to see that even those who claim to submit to an external authority such as the Pope, the bible, the Church, creeds, or doctrines are, in reality, submitting to their understanding, their own internal interpretation of the external authorities. While they may claim objective submission to externals, their submission is to their own internal perceptions of these things. I suspect that, ultimately whether we admit it or not, we all practice "to thine own heart be true." I think that we all worship, not God, but our own understanding of God.

Quote

I like that you test your realization with reason, witness it at work and perceive the unity of everything. I say you have found the way because it seems you are communicating directly with God. This communication is not only in your contemplation, but by means of intuition, moods, ideas and hopes. I am glad you are strong enough to follow these strong feelings that are responsible for your actions. We are guided by the same force that keeps the planets in place and God's pure consciousness is directing us to peace and happiness.

I appreciate your input, but I think you see a little more there in my experiences than I do. Yes, I test my "realities" with reason (for I loathe superstition and find it damaging). And my faith, such as it is, is more a way of living than a set of beliefs. But as to direct communication with God, again, that is open for debate. I don't perceive it that way. And I'm reasonably sure that it is gravity and angular momentum that keep the planets "in place", not a divine hand reaching out of nothingness. But I do appreciate the poetic speach because I find that poetry more often captures, as you say, the intuition, moods, ideas, and hopes of our humanity than does theology or prose.

Quote

You have found the path to God's Reality where one can't take a certain drug, do special exercises, go through a particular mental process or go to a particular church. The peace and tranquility in this Reality is only experienced within oneself.

I'm coming to know that, experiencially. And you are correct that I don't believe there is a magic bullet for a path to God's Reality. It is a path, often a hard one. And its a path of self-discovery.

Jesus didn't teach according to external authorities. He has his own authority based upon his own relationship to God. But it was an authority that worked itself out in service, not in enforcing submission. This is probably odd to say, and I certainly have no messiah-complex, but maybe we should be the same way. Way too many Christians appeal to external authority (the bible, God, the church, etc.), not to serve others, but to enforce their own agenda and to try to get others to submit to it. This, to me, is not "the way of Christ." Christ used his internal authority to serve, not to enslave. If there is a God that we experience, I suspect that that God is found in service to other people...or, as the bible puts it...in loving one another.

bill

[soma]

Every path is connected and I agree that some take a certain path to fulfill a certain need. They may change paths after finding the answer inside, and it really doesn't matter because if all paths are connected so they all lead to the same place.

Enjoy

[AllInTheNameOfProgress]

I think it is one of the great values of this website, connecting progressive Christians, so we can help each other with the "where do I go now?" after the "deconstruction" you mentioned. I remember reading some Spong about a decade ago and realizing even though he had deconstructed the literal "myths," I felt like he gave his readers nothing powerful to cling to in their place. In particular, in his "Resurrection: Myth or Reality?" book, he said the resurrection was probably simply an insight, an "aha" in the minds of the disciples, realizing who Jesus was for the first time and that He would never die. At the time it was a huge disappointment, but over time I can see a glimpse of the power and truth in that.

The process of "demythologizing" Christianity is what has driven my passion for thinking about how to communicate in these postmodern times(to adults and children) why I believe following Jesus, even today, is of highest importance.

Good luck to each of you in our shared journey!