[canajan, eh?]

David, on Dec 4 2007, 09:15 AM, said:

Great Rant,
Thank you.
I am sorry that I did not say that I also would miss Jen if she did not participate.
I would also actually miss Pat Robertson if he did not participate fully.
I do have to disagree about the role of Progressive Christianity.
It is so, so true that too often this social movement is seen as being against something and not for something.
But, I am wondering how many Progressive Christians would be "for" direct dictation of scriptures.
That does not mean that those who do see the Divine working in that way are evil or not to be accepted.
It's just that we probably are not going to go to the same Sunday School class.

So David . . . if you read you correctly, you welcome my participation and Pat Robertson's participation (although what Pat Robertson has to do with Progressive Christianity I can't say) and perhaps, if I do not exaggerate, you also welcome the participation of toenail fungus. This is the level on which I feel missed by you, David.

Let me be clear about my theology. It is, of course, my own "personal" theology, but then your own belief system about God is your own personal theology. I hold as my personal, cherished values the values of inclusiveness, eradication of racial and gender barriers between people, and healing of the extreme damage caused by patriarchal belief systems in Christianity and in the secular world. I believe in publicly funded health care and publicly funded schools for people of all backgrounds. I believe in educating our young people about science (not creationism!!!) and history so they will not repeat the scientific and political mistakes of past generations. I watch PBS and TVOntario. I vote for the Liberal party in Canada. I belong to a mainline Protestant denomination in Canada. I have five years of experience working in the mental health field. I have volunteered for health-based charities in my community. I am currently re-enrolled in university, where I am undertaking a second round of graduate studies. I have a grown son who seems to like me as a person. I am a bereaved mother. I have a foster child in Central America. I believe in God the Mother and God the Father. I believe in the Resurrection. I believe in the eternal soul. I believe that our Mother and Father love us. I believe there is life after death, but I do not believe there is a "Hell" created by God. I do not believe in any form of Satan, or devils, or demons, or incubi, or sucubi, or fallen angels. I believe, however, that a close examination of current scientific and psychological research will yield the somewhat distressing news that we, as human beings, can f**k up our own brains, and cause ourselves a whole messload of suffering.

I also am a channeller. If you wish to engage me in a scientific debate about what I am doing and how I am doing it, I can meet me at every conceivable level in that debate. I am a channeller who had the guts to get my brain scanned so that I would have some scientific documentation for what I do and how I do it. I know of no other channeller who has had the courage to stick his or her own brain under a SPECT scanner, and allow the science to speak.

Do I think there are people claiming to channel God who are in fact psychotic or just plain narcissistic? Of course I do. I know my way around the DSM-IV. I am perfectly well aware of the dangers created when people who have had (to name a few examples) a recent manic episode; a recent addictive overdose; temporal lobe seizures; a psychotic split; refractory psychotic depression; psychotic schizophrenia; or entrenched personality disorders such as narcissistic disorder . . . suddenly claim a profound religious conversion.

Well, I'm not claiming a sudden religious conversion, David. I'm claiming a slow, steady, often difficult path of inquiry that has broadened my knowledge in many different fields over the past few years.

You go ahead and be skeptical, David. But please do not place me in the same camp as Pat Robertson. I espouse liberal progressive Christian values, and I live those values. To put the shoe on the other foot, David, I would like to point out, for the sake of argument, that if you were a filmmaker devoted to making documentaries about people who have a liberal, progressive way of relating to God, and I accused you of being like Leni Riefenstahl simply because you're a filmmaker, you would not like it very much.

I am passing on information that I receive, nothing more and nothing less. You are welcome to ignore it (as I'm sure you already do).

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That does not mean that those who do see the Divine working in that way are evil or not to be accepted.

Well, gosh, thank you for that faint praise, David. Yippee! I'm not to be thought of as evil! I'll sleep much better tonight (me and my toenail fungus).

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It's just that we probably are not going to go to the same Sunday School class.

Yes, that's probably true. In my Sunday School class, there is still room for a God who works in mysterious ways.

Jen

[canajan, eh?]

mystictrek, on Dec 6 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

I have no problem with seeing God in an erotic way as a part of our appreciation of the immense variety of the divine attributes. For me, then, God needs to be a woman!

love, john

I can't believe you would say that about God, John. You are a retired pastor. In all your years of ministry, did you did not come across anyone who suffered the extreme trauma of sexual abuse? Do you really imagine there is no connection between sexual abuse and some of the passages in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament? Like . . . we should keep Old Testament teachings about slavery, and about domination and abuse of women, and while we're at it, let's keep Songs of Solomon? What are you thinking?

Maybe you and the others who promote this line of reasoning (it's in the Bible so it must be okay to talk about God using eroto-mystical imagery) imagine that you have the experience and wisdom to engage in eroto-mystical pursuits without falling into the ancient trap of thinking you can keep the sexual boundaries straight in your own head. This kind of pursuit is like spiritual crack cocaine. Go ahead, if you're sure you can stop any time you want to. But don't say nobody told you about the risks.

John, you say of me,

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Let Jen be Jen! It works for her and is her way of sharing wisdom with us (and foolishness whether she admits that or not!)

Well, poor old foolish me will go right on saying that it's wrong for us to talk about our divine parents in sexual terms, and that it's wrong for us to endorse this line of thinking on a site where young Christians may visit.

Let me reiterate, in case you didn't get it the first few times I said it, I do not dispute the importance of sacred sexuality within a loving, adult, human, monogamous relationship. Nor do I repudiate the vital importance of our sight and taste and smell and hearing and sacred touch as part of our relationship with God. But, you know, a beautiful sunset or a beautiful garden are gentle, loving, awe-filled metaphors for our relationship with God, and they are totally child-friendly and God-friendly, and they do not require complicated apologia. Shouldn't the child-appropriateness of our metaphors for God mean something?

***

And Fatherman, along the same lines, you said:

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Haven't you ever felt shivery warmth explode through your body while listening to a beautiful piece of music? Is that an inappropriate way to experience music? Has the musician abused the audience?

Oh, come on. How can you equate the sensory joy of appreciating music with having an eroto-mystical union with our Divine Parents? Music is great. Music is wonderful. I hear angelic voices in many of the songs I listen to. The music makes me happy. I'm not an ascetic.

I don't know exactly what kind of shivery warmth you're implying here, though. "Shivery warmth" could be one person's innocent joy, and another person's fullblown orgasm. I guess the reaction a person experiences when listening to a piece of music is up to that individual. I guess there are some individuals who might have a fullblown orgasm when listening to a piece of music that was written by a musician who was contemplating the beauty of the Stargazer lilies in his or her garden.

But if a teenaged child of mine had an observable orgasm in response to music and music alone, I'd be plenty worried as a parent.

Fatherman, if any individual out there has to resort to sexual metaphors to describe his or her powerful, beautiful experiences of God, he or she should take a walk outside, and look at the stars in the nighttime sky, or breathe in the crispness of new fallen snow, or be humbly infected by the incredible grin on an infant's face. If that individual cannot see God in these other venues, and continues to insist that God is best seen though "sexually tinted glasses," I would say that individual has gotten off the Path that Jesus taught us: the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Jen

[soma]

Jen thank you for sharing with us, I can tell you are concerned with the ills of mankind and the release of any confining patterns that would block forward movement towards a progressive more mature outlook. As Christian members of a progressive society we support the involvement in good living and a just order in society. We also have a feeling and a love for all and don't associate only with Christians. Jesus used his healing power on all kinds of people, not just his favorites or those who could give him a donation. I see you model that virtue too. Therefore, we do not seek to propagate our religious doctrine on you, but point to our need for liberation from anything fixed or confining. Together or alone we are looking through and beyond this planet to a mysterious and inexpressible union in God the Father/Mother in His/Her Almighty love.

How do we know we are doing the right thing? It is self-evident; we don't have to be told. When we eat a good meal we are satisfied, in the same way, we are satisfied with the spiritual path that we have chosen without a doubt. The spiritual pleasure experienced is much more satisfying than the worldly pleasures of the senses so one loses interest in the cruder pleasures like intoxication and sex. The bliss or spiritual happiness one experiences makes one forget about these lower pleasures. We can't understand spiritual pleasure intellectually because others can't accurately describe something that is beyond the mind so we have to experience this higher pleasure by ourselves and that is how we know we are on the right path. If someone is describing a piece of cake to you that doesn't mean you are eating the cake, eating the cake is much better. Everyone would rather delight in the taste rather than the description of spiritual bliss. We are serving out thoughts to each other on spiritual bliss. It might be some people's cup of tea and not appeal to others.

Many people and Christians are experiencing stress, despair, depression, discouragement and defeat today. But it does not have to be so. What then is the answer to living life? It can't be God, because God is perfect. The problems are in the human personality.

We seem to discover truth that is already there. It is not that truth changes, but that we make discoveries. We all have a way of putting a different name to what God's Word has said and calling it our own discovery. In this thread we are sharing our inner most thoughts on different subjects and yes, on sex (the Song of Solomon). We are sharing ideas. I feel no one was putting you down, but on the contrary have a respect for your ideas and opinions. I never thought of the sexual abuse aspect when reading the song, but that would be an interesting thought to explore.

Our inner drives come from a deep source that keeps the animals, the plants and humans under its influence. Even primitive men felt these forces of the higher spiritual mind and called them spirits, demons or gods. We as civilized men and women have acquired a certain amount of will power over this control and can apply our influence wherever we please. We can do our work efficiently and we can manifest our ideas into action without too many obstacles or problems. In practical terms this means that our existence as human beings will never be satisfactorily explained in terms of isolated instincts such as appetite, survival and procreation of the species. Our main purpose in life is not to eat, drink, sleep and have sex, but to be human. Above and beyond these drives of our inner reality there manifests a feeling of pure existence (soul).

When my ego and its passions do not prevail, the ego can't pervert my mind and shackle my consciousness. Then my consciousness can show me the healthy effects of striving for a higher self. I don't think we need a whip and bridle to curb my ego, but an incentive to force it into life so love takes the place of fear as the driving force. When the love for our body and mind expands beyond the ego and replaces aversion as the motive for our determination, our consciousness emerges from the gloom and refuses any longer to be suppressed, as it becomes the guiding light to attain a better life. It gives me an aim in life to free the mind, to know God and to realize that God's pure consciousness is the only cause, medium and effect in our lives. It gives me a motive that spurs me on to hack at the chains that get in our way, chains that bind the mind to pain and pleasure. Information and knowledge are the tools that assist in making a clear cut transformation so understanding, enlightenment and serenity can be achieved and kept in the mind because before bliss can be received the mind has to be spiritualized. I want to thank all on this forum who have challenged me to think, become conscious and have tolerated my thoughts in return. May we come to know ourselves and God together. May the most sacred heart of Jesus guide on in this endeavor. May we not see sex as an end all, but a stepping stone that can be skipped or used to find the Truth.

[David]

Jen,
Thank you for sharing more about yourself. Maybe you should know that I am seminary educated and have held several positions in the Christian church but mostly my background has been in the corporate world. Progressive Christianity is now a major concern of mine. By that I mean I am very concerned about the “face” that Progressive Christianity now gives to the world and what that “face” will look like in the future. I am very excited about the current liturgy project just announced by TCPC. So I guess I am a TCPC “cheerleader” in that I support the TCPC in what they have done and what they plan to do.

One thing that they have done is to provide this message board which has a great history of exchanges between people who also are trying to work out what Progressive Christianity means. So I am a little concerned when someone comes on this message board and speaks in the name of God or Jesus. I think it is safe to say that a very large percentage of Progressive Christians do not talk in these terms (Pat Robertson does and that is why I linked you to him). The direct dictation from the Divine has a long history which includes the Book of Mormon, the Holy Qur’an and the Holy Bible. I think it is safe to say that most, if not all, Progressive Christians would suggest that none of these writings are direct dictations from the Divine and so I see no reason to not question your direct dictations from the Divine.

I am not greatly concerned about this discussion because I think that anyone who attempts to speak in the name of God or Jesus (and not in their own voice) will eventually be caught by their own voice. I think that has happened to you in this discussion of the Songs of Solomon. I think that you have attempted to use the "knowledge" of this Jesus that you hear instead of your own voice. I think your voice on the issue of sexuality comes through loud and clear. I would just ask that you accept that it really is your own voice. That voice should be respected and accepted. I do that.

I am interested in "how one knows what one thinks one knows". Mystics will always have the problem of attempting to communicate a vision that does not separate them from the Divine in ways that do separate them from the Divine. We are stuck with this problem. It does no good to ignore the separation that comes with the attempt to communicate with others. If we think that it is possible to not have that separation then we have the potential for some very ugly religious wars between those that think they speak for Allah and those that think they speak for Jesus.

You have a gift to share. It is a valuable gift. Some of your writing I think is truly divinely inspired. I would miss that writing if it stopped.
David

[soma]

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Mystics will always have the problem of attempting to communicate a vision that does not separate them from the Divine in ways that do separate them from the Divine. We are stuck with this problem. It does no good to ignore the separation that comes with the attempt to communicate with others.

Great problem.................Great statement................Fun to try..................

When scientists compare the existence beneath the atomic level with Christian theorist, they agree on the basic nature of creation. The scientists launch their investigation in the external world outside the mind while the theoreticians begin inside the mind exploring the consciousness of our inner world; however, both come to the same conclusion. This agreement is that all things and actions are in harmony and unity. Unity is everywhere, in the minutest parts of our bodies, in the vast space of the cosmos and in the interconnectedness of all things. This consensus is an alternative to the traditional dualistic thought of many separate inert existences. This unity of all things in an intangible consciousness expands our perceptions of the material world and gives us a better understanding of the natural laws of Life as they apply to the individual and his\her relationship to the universal scheme of things. It is a view of unity and harmony that softens the harsh cutting edge of an isolated existence without love. The hostilities we might feel at this moment can be quickly dispelled, if we assist the natural processes that serve the function of reunification. The absence of unity and love in our lives is what makes us feel crude and incomplete so seeing our world as a backdrop for unity, we smooth away the tensions in the body and the mind so we can see energy flowing through dogs, cats, bacteria, people and the food we eat. Freely choosing unity and surrendering to its flow of energy, we assist the natural processes of relaxation that reduce mountainous problems to a size that we can cope with and overcome while we learn to love. Our lives become productive and fulfilling in proportion to the love we exchange so for that reason alone we should learn to appreciate and to feel the greatness of unity. Harmony comes when one feels one with all things.

Our scientists have developed powerful and sophisticated devices to examine the outer world and the inner world of the atom. They have confirmed that it is a vibrating living expanse of energy, moving and in harmony with a greater universe. They have found that all entities living and nonliving are vibrating and are an integral and important part of this external creation. They have also found that these different parts are serving the whole, just as the legs, hands, fingers and ears are meant for serving the total body. With the help of effective instruments these scholars have realized an order of cause and effect, and have begun to see everything as connected, no longer rejecting the idea that everything is united. In contrast, the Christian mystics have discovered the layers of consciousness in the mind. In their minds they have seen these layers lose their individual uniqueness as they retreated deeper and deeper in the psyche. Finally, like a drop of water losing itself in the ocean, the mystics have experienced a union with Christ consciousness where everything is united and one.

[McKenna]

David, on Dec 20 2007, 08:18 PM, said:

I am very excited about the current liturgy project just announced by TCPC. So I guess I am a TCPC “cheerleader” in that I support the TCPC in what they have done and what they plan to do.

Ohhh I'm really excited about the liturgy project too!!! When I read the article about it I couldn't stop smiling

Sorry for the interruption, but I felt a brief sidetrack on a positive note might not be a bad thing

[David]

Soma,
It is fun to try.
Your attempts come as close to success as any I have seen.
David

[soma]

I feel our biggest obstacle to our individual progress is our slave like devotion to precedent, and the way to overcome this long established habit of complying with other people's beliefs is to change our method of thinking. To do this I need a willingness to consider the possibility that the beliefs I follow may not reflect the whole truth. Many beliefs construct an experience of the universe that is narrow and not totally true because they are usually created in an environment of fear. This limits our personal life because it blocks our direct experience and replaces what we experience directly with opinions, positions, judgments and prejudice. The knowledge to change the nature of our reality and ourselves can bring us either success or failure, but it can also enable us to do something towards restraining the uncivilized instincts in society. If we fail we can try again, it is better than doing nothing because we will succeed in life despite the dogma and institutions trying to block our natural understanding of life. When a person changes, the world changes so both change or neither changes because what a person does or does not do has an impact on the world and makes a difference. Regaining our naturalness and genius will bring meaningful change to the world and our minds so Truth can be experienced. Thanks for the encouragement to continue to hack at the chains.

May Christmas be an internal joy and not an external distraction to you all.

[minsocal]

soma, on Dec 11 2007, 07:20 PM, said:

We are all introverts in some way and it isn't bad. We are alone with God for long periods of time. We go for long walks with God, slowly through nature. We are so fortunate to have such an understanding companion, not worrying about anything. Mow, you are right Our Lord puts joy in our heart, and we need to express it. I think that's what Song of Solomon is all about. We can use different words words to reveal different ways to send our joy to God. Music opens up the mind and heart. A powerful song can move us, allowing us to lose ourselves in God and enjoy the power of the thought of the Almighty. As the emotions run through us, we express our love of God in different ways. There is no one way to praise, as long as our praise comes from the heart. Our praise, music, love songs and worship can inspire others. The Song of Solomon leads me to connect with God through the powerful imagery.

There seems to be some continuity here between the Song of Solomon and other parts of the Bible. Consider this well known passage:

Michah 6:8

"He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"

[soma]

Minsocal nicely put, we do need to take on beliefs that encourage love, kindness, understanding and openness and at the same time reduce or do away with beliefs that result in jealousy, competition, envy and resentment. By directing our minds in a positive way we set off Christ's love and grace to create the loving environment and relationships that will enrich our lives and others.