[davidk]

soma,

Debate and dialogue, particularly on issues such as religion, can be contentiious. To that, I think we can all agree. Each side of the debate claims to have the right answer and this board is no different.

If I were to say Jesus is the Son of God and is the only way to be with the Father, or that the Judeo-Christian infinite-personal God offers the only explanation for love, you may disagree, but are you then considered to be denigrating my faith? If you don't accept Biblical Christianity as a possibility, are you then the close minded speaker in the debate? If your belief is that your faith is correct and mine is not, are you not claiming the superior position? Would that not demonstrate you may have narrowed your interpretations?

Each of us has a desire to share what we know about God's love and what we have personally discovered about truth. Don't we all want to see open-mindedness to the truth? We have come here because we want to reason these things together.

To put it briefly, I came here to mull these things over with people I knew may disagree with me. I also knew there would be people who wanted to know and wanted to be sure of God's love.

I love you because I know who you are, you are made in the image of God!


Dk

[davidk]

Dear Rivanna,

Quite the contrary. I find that if the liberal references scripture it demonstrates not a lapse, but genuine progress.

I've dabbled with Spong for a decade or two and fail to understand his popularity. He professes a "Biblical" blind leap of faith for some inexplicable spiritual trip or experience that, simply, doesn't exist. Spong's theology is all too reminiscent of the days during the '60's drug culture. Been there, done that. I really couldn't disagree with anyone more than I do Spong.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Dk

[soma]

DavidK, Christianity is not just walking into a church or repeating phrases from the Bible, but growing, understanding, loving and forgiving. We want to practice what Jesus believed not just repeat phrases to win a debate or to show superiority of a belief. We are here to change ourselves and grow closer to God. It seems you are looking to prove yourself right or win converts. If you are not willing to change or budge from a self righteous position, it would be better to state your view and then take a poll.

To open my mind and heart I am willing to walk into a Buddhist temple or a Synagogue to become a better Christian. The books from other religions and the Bible have helped me in my journey to know Christ and myself. I trust in my Lord and don't close my mind in just one book to protect simple ideas.

[davidk]

soma, on Jan 15 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

DavidK, Christianity is not just walking into a church or repeating phrases from the Bible, but growing, understanding, loving and forgiving. We want to practice what Jesus believed not just repeat phrases to win a debate or to show superiority of a belief. We are here to change ourselves and grow closer to God. It seems you are looking to prove yourself right or win converts. If you are not willing to change or budge from a self righteous position, it would be better to state your view and then take a poll.

To open my mind and heart I am willing to walk into a Buddhist temple or a Synagogue to become a better Christian. The books from other religions and the Bible have helped me in my journey to know Christ and myself. I trust in my Lord and don't close my mind in just one book to protect simple ideas.

Soma,
I agree with your first sentence. After that I think I have some significant differences with you. For example, Jesus claimed being the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except by way of Him. He also taught that we are inadequate to change ourselves because we are completely dependant on Him and His finished work for that.

It's not that I'm right on my own, but I have grown to recognize that the Christian view is exactly in line with the experience of every man. That no other system except the Judeo-Christian one, that which is given in the Old and New Testaments together, tells us why there is a subject-object correlation that one does and must act on.

You see everybody acts on it, everybody must act on it. In other words, all men constantly act as though Christianity is true. In the profound area of epistemology, no matter what a man says he believes, he is acting as though Christianity were true and it is the only system that tells him why he can, must, and does act the way he does. If we are going to live in this world at all, we must live in it on the basis of our experience that there is a correlation between ourselves and the things that are there, from breathing, to love, to morality. This shouldn't be surprising because God made it all to go together. He made it all in the same frame of reference. ie; the tree is there and I can't walk through it. Everybody has to face the truth. While those other books cannot be said to be devoid of some truths, it is only the Bible that gives us the needed knowledge. It is and always will be the standard other books are held to.

If love is a simple idea to protect, trust the book that reveals His truth about it. We can't let our mind be closed to the reasonable God making both the subject and object and giving us His spoken revelation of the needed knowledge. Understanding God has actually communicated with man who wrote it down, is the open-minded approach.

This was rather hastily written, I hope you understand what I have tried to convey.

[soma]

Thomas Aquinas calls affective knowledge a knowing not only through the mind but also through the heart. "This sapiential or affective knowledge given as a grace by the Holy Spirit is also called experiential knowledge - cognitio experimentalis. . . ." There are many different ways to have a spiritual experience with the Lord. There is not just one way.

Jesus brings salvation to us not only through being the symbol of God, but also by being a model of what it means to be human. Studying the scripture and the teachings of Christ is objective. Objective salvation is about the work of Jesus Christ that is why Christians say humanity is saved through him through calculative and sober analysis. Subjective salvation refers and reinforces in a Christian the experiential side of salvation in love through Jesus as the base of Christianity. In Christian Mysticism the Christian enters an emptying oneself of all the intellectual barriers that lie in the way of pure experience. "Lord let thy will be done." It takes will power to let go of the will, to say let they will be done. Many Christians don't understand or have this experience because they don't trust Our Lord and are afraid of the experience of letting go. This fears extends into a fear of other religions too. There fear causes them to strike out at anything different.

John Calvin said that we all have inherited sin from Adam and are therefore sinful in nature from birth so that we are completely inclined to do evil. One cannot do good even if he wants to because of his depraved nature which he inherited from Adam. "Only God can save man." This is John's psychology and it does not say that in the Bible. Christians like this because they can go to church once a week with jaundiced eyes say only God can save us and then leave to a life of excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures.

Christian Mysticism is personal, where one relates to Christ, not a book or an organization. One makes a free decision to follow Christ. Then the Holy Spirit becomes an active power urging us to the active love of God and our neighbor. Prayer is no longer a burden, a prescript repeated for others to hear, but a silent, personal conversation with God. Deep prayer, meditation, contemplation and the study of spiritual matters becomes one's life.

Christian enlightenment is becoming aware of the meaning and purpose of life. Our Lord's words then become true, "The man who follows me will have the light of life" (Jn 8:12). It is not a phrase that is repeated, but lived and experienced. The light of life brings joy because it is seen in every person and everything. Other people with different beliefs can be seen in this life and their spiritual teachings do lead people to it. It is sad that people who don't have this experience in Christianity manipulate others with fear. I am a Christian and I appreciate the knowledge I have gained from the sciences and philosophies of the world.

[minsocal]

soma,

Thank you for this observation "Thomas Aquinas calls affective knowledge a knowing not only through the mind but also through the heart."

minsocal

[davidk]

soma, on Jan 15 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

Thomas Aquinas calls affective knowledge a knowing not only through the mind but also through the heart. "This sapiential or affective knowledge given as a grace by the Holy Spirit is also called experiential knowledge - cognitio experimentalis. . . ." There are many different ways to have a spiritual experience with the Lord. There is not just one way.

Jesus brings salvation to us not only through being the symbol of God, but also by being a model of what it means to be human. Studying the scripture and the teachings of Christ is objective. Objective salvation is about the work of Jesus Christ that is why Christians say humanity is saved through him through calculative and sober analysis. Subjective salvation refers and reinforces in a Christian the experiential side of salvation in love through Jesus as the base of Christianity. In Christian Mysticism the Christian enters an emptying oneself of all the intellectual barriers that lie in the way of pure experience. "Lord let thy will be done." It takes will power to let go of the will, to say let they will be done. Many Christians don't understand or have this experience because they don't trust Our Lord and are afraid of the experience of letting go. This fears extends into a fear of other religions too. There fear causes them to strike out at anything different.

John Calvin said that we all have inherited sin from Adam and are therefore sinful in nature from birth so that we are completely inclined to do evil. One cannot do good even if he wants to because of his depraved nature which he inherited from Adam. "Only God can save man." This is John's psychology and it does not say that in the Bible. Christians like this because they can go to church once a week with jaundiced eyes say only God can save us and then leave to a life of excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures.

Christian Mysticism is personal, where one relates to Christ, not a book or an organization. One makes a free decision to follow Christ. Then the Holy Spirit becomes an active power urging us to the active love of God and our neighbor. Prayer is no longer a burden, a prescript repeated for others to hear, but a silent, personal conversation with God. Deep prayer, meditation, contemplation and the study of spiritual matters becomes one's life.

Christian enlightenment is becoming aware of the meaning and purpose of life. Our Lord's words then become true, "The man who follows me will have the light of life" (Jn 8:12). It is not a phrase that is repeated, but lived and experienced. The light of life brings joy because it is seen in every person and everything. Other people with different beliefs can be seen in this life and their spiritual teachings do lead people to it. It is sad that people who don't have this experience in Christianity manipulate others with fear. I am a Christian and I appreciate the knowledge I have gained from the sciences and philosophies of the world.

Spiritual experiences can be one of two ways. One is not necessarily- joyful.
But to be clear: in coming to God the Father we do each have varied, individual, and personal experiences. But that is not what Jesus was expressing when He said it is He that is the only way home to the Father. Jesus is saying that He relates to each of our varied, personal experiences and efforts, to come before the Father, but that God the Father provided only one way adequate enough to do the job, faith in Him. That eliminates any confusion.

Calvin is among many who know man is abnormal from what he intrinsically was made to be via his willfull disobedience toward God. That is what the rest of us have inherited, that inclination to do it ourselves, not trusting God first.
Thought: If we were born sinless, why would it be that things such as sharing with others has to be taught?

Well, the Bible actually does speak to man's earning only judgement for our sin until faith in Jesus, the one whom God sent, saves him.
God provided us a way, one way, His way. We can say there are other ways but there is only one that has been given to us. And that is through faith in His Son, Jesus the Christ. If God provides the way, then it is He who has saved. We have no means to provide it.

I appreciate that you recognize the personal, infinite, rational, spiritual being- God. I would add that this is all something that can only be learned through the Bible. If I have understood what you mean, I would think it difficult to have a personal conversation with someone who is silent, don't ya think?

Jesus insisted on several occasions that salvation was enirely dependent on believing on Him. Again, I hope to express this clearly. The basis of the gift of Salvation is the finished, substututionary death of Jesus. The instrument by which we we accept the free gift is faith. Faith is provided by God and by soberly analyzing it we find that faith is 1. believing God's promises, and by 2. accepting with our empty hand the gift without adding humanistic religious or moral works to it.

Jesus said He is the life.
Jn 8:12; Again Jesus spoke to them, saying,"I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Jn 14:6; Jesus said to him, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

---
minsocal,

Thanks for re-emphasizing this. Good point.
Aquinas saw continuity between nature and grace. Because of his writings, nature recieved a more proper place from the Bibliocal viewpoint. However, it may be doubtful he would pleased with all that has been extended from his writings.

And thank you Soma for providing it.

[soma]

DavidK, Unity in the Bible is not uniformity, but harmony. As Christians we have a common life in Christ, but we do not have to follow conclusions that are not logical, simple traditions, spiritual narrow minded fear, and a limiting theology. A command of scripture is to love our neighbor because God loves them, not because they join our church, or follow one persons narrow interpretations from the Bible. We are not to judge others, which I might add means their belief, and religion. There are differing decisions on the spiritual path and they are not wrong, and they also lead to Truth and God the Father. Believing in one denominational persuasion does not make one an apostle or disciple, but if it leads to speaking bitter about others beliefs it shows a meanness. A true disciple will praise the Lord, not put down other religions. You can have Christian unity in your church without love, but you cannot have love without unity.

Unity is expressed in Christianity by letting the self be ruled by the Christ within. Let the Christ teachings unfold in and through our lives and know that this Christ principle indwells in every individual, no matter what the religious belief. Please give thanks for the realization of the the Christ consciousness alive within our lives.

[Russ]

Marcus Borg made a good point when he said that something doesn't need to be 'factually' true in order to be 'actually' true. That observation has allowed me to understand the stories of The Bible in terms of oral tradition, history, wisdom, and spiritual insight. With this in mind I've been able to navigate between blind acceptance and blind rejection.

[Jim Ramelis]

Russ, on Jan 18 2009, 09:38 AM, said:

Marcus Borg made a good point when he said that something doesn't need to be 'factually' true in order to be 'actually' true. That observation has allowed me to understand the stories of The Bible in terms of oral tradition, history, wisdom, and spiritual insight. With this in mind I've been able to navigate between blind acceptance and blind rejection.

[Jim Ramelis]

Russ, on Jan 18 2009, 09:38 AM, said:

Marcus Borg made a good point when he said that something doesn't need to be 'factually' true in order to be 'actually' true. That observation has allowed me to understand the stories of The Bible in terms of oral tradition, history, wisdom, and spiritual insight. With this in mind I've been able to navigate between blind acceptance and blind rejection.

Marcus Borg turned my head around and changed my perspective on Christianity and the Bible. I have learned so much from him and his teachings have enabled me to see the Bible through a whole new lens that increases my appreciation for it.

[davidk]

soma, on Jan 17 2009, 08:16 PM, said:

DavidK, Unity in the Bible is not uniformity, but harmony. As Christians we have a common life in Christ, but we do not have to follow conclusions that are not logical, simple traditions, spiritual narrow minded fear, and a limiting theology. A command of scripture is to love our neighbor because God loves them, not because they join our church, or follow one persons narrow interpretations from the Bible. We are not to judge others, which I might add means their belief, and religion. There are differing decisions on the spiritual path and they are not wrong, and they also lead to Truth and God the Father. Believing in one denominational persuasion does not make one an apostle or disciple, but if it leads to speaking bitter about others beliefs it shows a meanness. A true disciple will praise the Lord, not put down other religions. You can have Christian unity in your church without love, but you cannot have love without unity.

Unity is expressed in Christianity by letting the self be ruled by the Christ within. Let the Christ teachings unfold in and through our lives and know that this Christ principle indwells in every individual, no matter what the religious belief. Please give thanks for the realization of the the Christ consciousness alive within our lives.

Soma,
I have mentioned before that while all men act as if Christianity were true, I am not infering that all faiths are essentially the same. Far from it. While other faiths can also identify with the unity (harmony as it were) of all of creation, it is only Christianity that can address the needed explanation for its (creations) diversity.

Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement." If another "faith" rationally fails to consider reality, we have the obligation to share that truth with them without bitterness, but with love and in a way they may be able to understand.

[soma]

davidk, on Jan 19 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Soma,
Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement." If another "faith" rationally fails to consider reality, we have the obligation to share that truth with them without bitterness, but with love and in a way they may be able to understand.

DavidK when you judge other faiths you are judging from appearance. Other faiths do rationally consider reality and they enhance Christianity with their explanations. For example, you have not meditated enough to judge other religions that meditate.

All religions have a perspective of theological thought. The belief that we hold to be the true will only be ratified when we stand before God until then our faith remains faith with our own interpretation of Scriptures.

It takes time to believe and accept the unifying force in one God and for the undesirable experiences accumulated to gradually disappear. We are either for or against unity so for something new to be born we need to pass from a sense of being isolated into a realization of oneness with everything. Unity can be achieved if we push the envelope and not reaffirm our limitations that our God is the true God again suggesting that there is more than one God. Defending limitations strengthens them limiting our beliefs and realities so to be successful we need the tool of knowledge to explore the unknown and find a deeper meaning in the word of God. With options and alternatives ignorance is not bliss, but a self imposed limitation.

[JosephM]

davidk, on Jan 19 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Soma,
While other faiths can also identify with the unity (harmony as it were) of all of creation, it is only Christianity that can address the needed explanation for its (creations) diversity.

(snip)

David,

It seems to me it is precisely statements or beliefs such as this that make true unity with all of creation nearly impossible and if harm can be done, does the most harm.

Just something to consider.

Love Joseph

[davidk]

soma,
The unity of all existence is that God created the external universe so that it has a certain form and it has a certain order, and created man conforms to that order so he can live within it. That is what actually exists and all men act on that truth. And with knowing that truth, it is Christianity that has the only answer to the question of both the personal unity (with freedom & morals) and diversity (with purpose & meaning) in God and in His creation, with the Biblical revelation binding not only the outward man but the inward as well, and in all these there is a unity.
---
Jesus said judging on substance, rather than emotions, is not only allowable in all things, but necessary. In regard to your topic; when we choose what we believe, we're making judgments on all faiths and their "gods".

[soma]

DavidK, It seems your unity is focused on division rather than union. Our priority as Christians should be love, but we allow our feelings, Biblical standards and actions to become contempt and hate when others don't agree. Conservative Christians seem to look down on those with slightly different views. Christian condemn and excommunicate other Christians from their church for not having identical views. These differences among Christians has started killings and war for example Ireland between Christians. This defeats the one commandment Jesus gave, to love God and one another. Christians can't even get along with Christians with your attitude much less other religions. You seem to narrow your circle of unity with every post.

King James Bible Romans 22-14
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

[JosephM]

davidk, on Jan 21 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

The unity of all existence is that God created the external universe so that it has a certain form and it has a certain order, and created man conforms to that order so he can live within it. That is what actually exists and all men act on that truth.

Very profound yet all men do not act on that truth and conform as you suppose by your use of "all" in that statement. Many do not conform and perish by trying to create their own order.

Davidk said:

And with knowing that truth, it is Christianity that has the only answer to the question of both the personal unity (with freedom & morals) and diversity (with purpose & meaning) in God and in His creation, with the Biblical revelation binding not only the outward man but the inward as well, and in all these there is a unity.

On the contrary, the Christianity you speak of, is that which is exclusive and instead of evolving to conform to that order that is necessary for consciousness to evolve with the external universe will perish with time.

Quote

---
Jesus said judging on substance, rather than emotions, is not only allowable in all things, but necessary. In regard to your topic; when we choose what we believe, we're making judgments on all faiths and their "gods".

It seems to me if you could "see" true substance, you would not be making that statement. Jesus said he did not judge of himself but allowed the father to work in and through him. Perhaps there is no need for us to make judgements on all faiths and their "gods" . One can choose what one believes but that is not a judgement of the other but rather a choice one makes. There is a difference.

Joseph

[davidk]

soma, on Jan 21 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

DavidK, It seems your unity is focused on division rather than union. Our priority as Christians should be love, but we allow our feelings, Biblical standards and actions to become contempt and hate when others don't agree. Conservative Christians seem to look down on those with slightly different views. Christian condemn and excommunicate other Christians from their church for not having identical views. These differences among Christians has started killings and war for example Ireland between Christians. This defeats the one commandment Jesus gave, to love God and one another. Christians can't even get along with Christians with your attitude much less other religions. You seem to narrow your circle of unity with every post.

King James Bible Romans 22-14
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Am I wrong when I say you choose what you believe by way of your own judgment? If you are not a Jew you have judged Judaism. If you are a Jew you have judged it. Either way you would have judged Judaism by some manner alongside/against other belief systems in order to choose it.

If you do not understand why I can confidently say Christian philosophy is the only one that fills the philosophical needs of all the world's thought, that it has the only answer for our being, for explaining the dilemma of man's nobleness and cruelty, that the norms of Scripture more and more bring together the inward and outward man, where truth and love and meaning and beauty abound, and why we have real reason for hope; I would say you have misjudged not me, but Christianity itself.

This post has been edited by davidk: 21 January 2009 - 10:02 PM

[davidk]

JosephM, on Jan 21 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Very profound yet all men do not act on that truth and conform as you suppose by your use of "all" in that statement. Many do not conform and perish by trying to create their own order.
On the contrary, the Christianity you speak of, is that which is exclusive and instead of evolving to conform to that order that is necessary for consciousness to evolve with the external universe will perish with time.
It seems to me if you could "see" true substance, you would not be making that statement. Jesus said he did not judge of himself but allowed the father to work in and through him. Perhaps there is no need for us to make judgements on all faiths and their "gods" . One can choose what one believes but that is not a judgement of the other but rather a choice one makes. There is a difference.

Joseph

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Joe,
Read this again: "God created the external universe so that it has a certain form and it has a certain order, and created man conforms to that order so he can live within it. That is what actually exists and all men act on that truth." I don't think you want to really argue this point. Like the serpant, you don't have a leg to stand on. All man must conform to the form and order of what actually exists so he can live within it, and everybody already knows this!
It's like having mouths to eat, lungs to breathe the air, muscles to cooperate with gravity, or whatever. Created man has the equipment that conforms to the world so he can live within it and he acts like it. He eats and breathes and walks and whatever.
--
Christianity is exclusive because it conforms to absolutes like: truth. Which never perishes.
--
Joe, another bad topic for you to argue. Choice is always a judgment call.

Sincerely,
Dk

[Russ]

"God created the external universe so that it has a certain form and it has a certain order, and created man conforms to that order so he can live within it. That is what actually exists and all men act on that truth." If you're referring to simply being, David, you may have a point. If you're referring to human behavior, I would have to disagree.

This post has been edited by Russ: 22 January 2009 - 08:10 AM