[flowperson]

Yep...just hold your noses and vote !

flow....

[JosephM]

Jim R, on Oct 29 2006, 09:53 AM, said:

(snip)
Given the current state of affairs and the huge propaganda mechanism we are dealing with, the Dems are our best hope.

Given the current state of affairs it seems to me that God remains our best and only hope.

[Russ]

Yeah, that was my soapbox rant of the year. Lets you know what I think of the Empire's political process. I manage to distance myself from junk culture, junk politics, junk values, etc., just for my own sanity. Without the distractions of what passes for 'entertainment' (electronic, modern versions of the Empire's Colliseum circuses), the heart-attack-fast-track careers, constantly chasing after the latest gadget, cars, fashion, etc., I've been able to bring myself closer to peace. Being in recovery for 24 years has helped, too. I know that social consciousness is process, so in the meantime I do what I personally can. I spent over 5 years helping out with recovery meetings in a maximum security men's prison hearing the personal stories of inmates and sharing my own hope and strength. I recently began a bi-weekly spiritual meeting for people in recovery at my church. This is an interesting venture becasue it gives those who would not normally attend 'church' an opportunity to explore their own spritiual journey with others in recovery. Just a bit of 'giving back' on my part.

[Cynthia]

What a great thread! I will vote for dems over reps but I have come to the conclusion recently that "it" (political issues at large) can't be about what we are told they are about. Many of the issues are too long-standing, too simple, and too unchanged over the course of several decades and changes of political party to be issues anyone is actually working on fixing. I think that the idea of a red herring applies. Wave Mark Foley around so we watch and slip the anti-civil rights (for anyone) right by, unnoticed. Most people never notice.

I read something this w/e about the '50s. I tend to think of that as a picturebook decade despite knowing about racial problems, gender discrimination, etc. What I hadn't grasped was the level of deceipt, lack of civil rights for anyone accused of communism (with or generally without evidence), and, perhaps much of the same unbelievable hudzpa we see now. They had the threat of communists held over much as we do terrorists. It looks much the same. I wasn't around then (I'm 39) any thoughts????

I also am totally torn between the idea and belief that God is and that the universe is on course - even if I don't understand it while still feeling like Don Quixote. I'm striving for detachment (in the Buddhist sense - not the apathy sense) and acceptance while maintaining my energy to do what I can and to figure out what that is.

I so appreciate all these posts. Knowing others are awake and paying attention is unspeakably valuable to me.

[flowperson]

Cynthia:

Fear not...we're all here. And yes...I suppose one could logically compare the activities of our vice-president with those of Joe McCarthy, but IMHO these sort of historical matchups only go to prove that there are really no coincidences in life and we are all actors on the stage. The play doesn't change over time, only the actors and costumes do. And of course now the speed with which the plays unfold and infold is accentuated..and all is infused with unlimited aspects of misdirection and deception. Detach...detach...detach...simplify...simplify...simplify...but it's so difficult when love is involved.

flow....

This post has been edited by flowperson: 30 October 2006 - 10:46 AM

[Cynthia]

flowperson, on Oct 30 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

Cynthia:

Fear not...we're all here. And yes...I suppose one could logically compare the activities of our vice-president with those of Joe McCarthy, but IMHO these sort of historical matchups only go to prove that there are really no coincidences in life and we are all actors on the stage. The play doesn't change over time, only the actors and costumes do. And of course now the speed with which the plays unfold and infold is accentuated..and all is infused with unlimited aspects of misdirection and deception. Detach...detach...detach...simplify...simplify...simplify...but it's so difficult when love is involved.

flow....

Thanks Flow - I totally agree. The historical matchups, for me, are strangely comforting. Knowing that this is not uniquely bad/unbelievable/choose your adjective of dismay, allows me to better detach. It's not now or never... it just still is.

/off to read Julian of Norwich (I think?) All things will be well and all things will be well, and all manner of things will be well. Breathe... repeat :>

Godspeed cyberfriend, C

[flowperson]

Godspeed indeed my Sweet. As I tell people when they ask me how I'm doing I reply,"I'm walking around and breathing."

Everything else is really superfluous.

flow....

[rivanna]

Last week there was a TV interview with Barack Obama--how calm and articulate he was, commenting on the administration. I haven't read his latest book but it sounds admirable: The Audacity of Hope: thoughts on recovering the American dream.

At one point he said (if I recall correctly): "The president is entitled to his own opinions. He is not entitled to his own facts."

[flowperson]

Barack is definitely in our future, but I hope not too soon. Maybe about four years from now. I'm just afraid of all the hollywoodization that's already been done with his persona, but I agree that he does seem to be THE man.

flow...

[rivanna]

Well, I really wasn't thinking in those terms-- I was mainly agreeing with his view of the war,
as most of us do, IMHO.

[des]

Well of course, John Kennedy was a little younger and not that much more experienced than
Barack Obama would be. I think he has had a few more years in the Senate (Kennedy) and
was a veteran. (See how much lots of experience in the Senate and military service helped John
Kerry!).

Anyway, I was curious what people thought about the role Barack Obama's progressive
religious background might be??

I know this is changing the subject, but we all know that a lot of times we vote for the lesser
of two evils. I sure am this time for the House, but we have a very contested seat of a person who
a couple years ago was thought of as pretty much unbeatable. I sure don't like the Democratic
candidate that much more, but at least feel that she stands a chance. Anyway, if you think it's fun
to be in one of those pivotal districts-- hah! All the negative, nasty ads make you want to vomit. I'd be
perfectly happy to get rid of both of them.


Anyway back to my question?

--des

[Russ]

des, on Oct 31 2006, 10:15 PM, said:

Anyway, I was curious what people thought about the role Barack Obama's progressive
religious background might be??

Regardless of what he may want to do or seem to be, both the Demuplican and Republicratic parties are power machines...any real, meaningful social/political/economic reform will either be watered down and co-opted or destroyed out right as a threat to the Empire's economic and political dictatorship. It would be like trying to end the Viet Nam war by urging everyone to vote for the Democrats...even after protesters were beaten ouside of the Democratic Party Convention in Chicago in front of the entire country and the world. That is the real face of politics in this country. Everything else is public relations and window dressing.

This post has been edited by Russ: 01 November 2006 - 09:21 PM

[Mystical Seeker]

Russ, on Nov 1 2006, 06:15 PM, said:

Regardless of what he may want to do or seem to be, both the Demuplican and Republicratic parties are power machines...any real, meaningful social/political/economic reform will either be watered down and co-opted or destroyed out right as a threat to the Empire's economic and political dictatorship. It would be like trying to end the Viet Nam war by urging everyone to vote for the Democrats...even after protesters were beaten ouside of the Democratic Party Convention in Chicago in front of the entire country and the world. That is the real face of politics in this country. Everything else is public relations and window dressing.

I agree with you, Russ. I think that both major parties are just tools for corporate interests and for the Empire. I also think that our entire political process is corrupt, and that the solution does not lie in faithful progressives throwing their lot in with one faction of the Empire's ruling elite.

As William Sloan Coffin once said, "A liberal is a person who thinks other people need help, and a radical is one who knows we're all in trouble."

[mystictrek]

A NY TIMES / CBS NEWS poll shows that Americans are planning to vote for the Democrats by a 52-33 margin in Congressional races. This is the largest gap between the 2 parties in the history of this poll!

So, if the GOP retains control of Congress, there is *definitely something wrong with our election system.*

[des]

While I agree that neither party is a voice for any kind of real change, and neither party should be purchased lock stock and barrel by people of faith-- this is the myth that the Christian right fell into,
I do still feel some strong reasons to vote Democratic, at least this time.
1. Counterbalance of dangerous behavior in the executive branch. (I think more likely to happen since we are now not right after 9/11.
2. Selection of judges. Right wing selection will affect the courts for years after the Republicans leave
office.
3. Change NCLB (No child left behind). This is a really bad law that is up for reconsideration. I feel it detrimentally effects thousands of kids in this country.
4. Counterbalance of neo-conservative voices on environment. Right now MOST Americans believe the message sent by the White House-- that there is a differing of opinion on global warming. This is confusing.
(BTW, I don't really think this is "conservative".) Mind you I don't feel anything will be done for awhile, but to do anything we have to have most of the population believign that something should be done.
5. Be able to talk about getting out of Iraq. (I didn't say we would get out, just be able to talk about it.)

Admittedly, these are modest goals. I don't think that this kind of discussion actually even belongs on the religious side fo this forum, as I think they are calculating in a certain way.

IMO, we have many structural problems with our whole system that are inherently undemocratic:
Power is centered in small towns and rural areas vs. large cities, even though most people live in cities;
We can never have a viable third party, the only thing a third party can do is bring up issues and act as a
spoiler; etc. Even though most people are independent, the country is run in a highly partisan way; etc.

--des

[Lolly]

Cynthia, on Oct 30 2006, 08:09 AM, said:

What a great thread! I will vote for dems over reps but I have come to the conclusion recently that "it" (political issues at large) can't be about what we are told they are about. Many of the issues are too long-standing, too simple, and too unchanged over the course of several decades and changes of political party to be issues anyone is actually working on fixing. I think that the idea of a red herring applies. Wave Mark Foley around so we watch and slip the anti-civil rights (for anyone) right by, unnoticed. Most people never notice.

I read something this w/e about the '50s. I tend to think of that as a picturebook decade despite knowing about racial problems, gender discrimination, etc. What I hadn't grasped was the level of deceipt, lack of civil rights for anyone accused of communism (with or generally without evidence), and, perhaps much of the same unbelievable hudzpa we see now. They had the threat of communists held over much as we do terrorists. It looks much the same. I wasn't around then (I'm 39) any thoughts????

I also am totally torn between the idea and belief that God is and that the universe is on course - even if I don't understand it while still feeling like Don Quixote. I'm striving for detachment (in the Buddhist sense - not the apathy sense) and acceptance while maintaining my energy to do what I can and to figure out what that is.

I so appreciate all these posts. Knowing others are awake and paying attention is unspeakably valuable to me.

Hello, Cynthia and all!

I think the phrase went something like "those who don't remember history are condemned to repeat it." I don't recall who said it, but it seems to be true. We see throughout recorded history a repeated pattern of those in power abusing power and turning a blind eye to human rights and social justice; history is littered with stories of power mad emperors and dictators of every stripe. Two thousand years ago Christ saw it and commented on it, and here we are today with the same problems. And yet, as a society, we seem to find it impossible to fathom that such things might be real, that our own land might be heading down such a corrupt path. It saddens me immensely to see what is happening in my country today, but given what has happened historically, I won't say that I'm surprised by any of it. Exploiting one another seems to be one descriptive of the dark side of human nature.

As far as the universe unfolding as it should, I have a bit of a technical quibble on that one. The universe is unfolding on the basis of the input it receives, and has received, from all of us, and from all that has been before us. At any point we have the opportunity to choose ill or to choose well, and the universe will be affected by those choices and will respond to them. I would say that the universe is unfolding exactly as is prescribed by the input it has received to date. The future is wide open and wholly dependent upon what happens next.

As a student of Buddhism I have also watched this kind of discussion unfold countless times. I'd suggest that the notion of unobstructed, "perfect" flow as is often presented by students of mystical religions is probably more taoist/fatalist than this and fails to take into account the complexities of cause and effect or the role that choice/volition/action plays in the way things unfold. It's also a misunderstanding of what is meant, in this context, by "perfect". I'd suggest that things are "perfect" only in the sense that things perfectly follow the path prescribed by what has happened up to any given point in time. It might be a bit too simplistic to simply suggest that we create our own reality; it can also a bit narcissistic in that it ultimately brings one to the conclusion that nothing exists outside of the self.

I suggest it's probably more accurate to say that we create our own reality to the extent that we are able to influence things within our immediate area, which in turn influences the way the future takes shape, but we do not live in a vaccum. Our existence, and the choices presented to us, are conditioned by all that has come before. Within each moment we are able to choose, but our choices are limited. We cannot simply choose to, say, flap our arms and fly, but we can learn to build machines that do fly. Doing this, however, relies on the work and choices of those who came before.

Therefore, I find it much more meaningful to speak about co-creating our reality. Our actions affect the world around us, and the actions of others affect our world. The word that the Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh would use to describe this is "interdependence".

It is important to me that I understand this point: choosing to do harm will create harm. Choosing to love one another creates something different. As a Christian, I believe that God gave us the will to choose and wishes for us to choose well for ourselves and one another. A loving God, to my mind, does not manipulate but allows us the freedom to find our own best nature, as a parent would allow a loved child to find his or her own best way of being in the world. I believe that loving others is what Christ taught because that is the path to becoming a fully realized being, and the path to creating the most harmony in our little corners of the universe.

[Russ]

The key to social and economic progress is a constantly inclusive and expanding system of democracy...citizen participation and decision making on all levels. I am a 100% believer in full democracy, not limited democracy where we just get to vote on a school budget or Candidate A or Candidate B. Why isn't the full federal budget published and available for all to see on-line? What's being hidden? Why can't we have a full running on-line Congrssional Record for all to see who proposed what, who voted for what, etc.? The same with committee meeting...fish bowl government. Now that's government of the people, by the people, and for the people, IMHO.

[flowperson]

Russ:

I'm with ya' bruddah. Not such a lengthy rant this time, but quality stuff nonetheless. Let's hope that some meaningful changes are coming.

If you're not already a listener, you should google Democracy Now.org and listen to the stream of Amy Goodman's daily newscasts. I believe that videeo is also available. She has exhibited consistent excellence for the past ten years and I have listened to her much of that time. Audio and video podcasts are also available for free at the apple music store. Her information is consistently weeks ahead of the usual news sources, and when the stories break big elsewhere it's amazing how right on her original findings turn out to be.

Keep the faith...flow....

[flowperson]

Hi Lolly:

I don't believe that I've ever had the pleasure, but I recollect your name from about the time I joined last year. You are right on in your views. The universe is a bulk of time, light, and mostly darkness. Our consciousness and what we do with it determines future outcomes for ourselves and increasingly many other beings in the webbing of life forms. It is all such an intricate interconnectedness, and these days a lot of it is being destroyed and impaired because of thoughtless actions.

That doesn't mean that we should embrace apathy, but we should quietly accumulate the needed information and images so that when we act we do so on the basis of (excuse me for using this) thinking globally/universally and acting locally. Passing on kindness, good humor, and consideration is only the first step in really loving one's neighbors...be they human or otherwise.

So good to be reading your posts again Lolly.

Peace to you and yours...flow....

This post has been edited by flowperson: 04 November 2006 - 05:54 PM

[Jack Twist]

It has been said there is no difference between our two political parties.

choice vs eliminating abortion (such as the South Datoka initative)
Supreme Court nominations
Kyoto accords - global warmings
tax cuts for the wealthy
the minimum wage
stem cell research
environmental concerns (Bush has spent 6 yars trying to undo what Clinton did)
the war
investigations of wrong doing
what is taught in our schools (ie intelligent design)
torture
civil liberties
civil rights
equal rights for all or whipping the flames of hatred against gays and denying them civil unions
working in partnership with others in this world
response to terrorism by going after criminals or response to terrorism by waging losing wars in two countries

There are stark differences between the parties and it make a real difference which one holds the balance of power -

its important to our system of checks and balances that the Congress be of another party to bring balance to our government - it is contrary to reality to say there is no difference - very different things will happen with a Democratic Congress than with a Republican Congress -

yeah they are all alike on some things -- but not policy, not on the choices that will be made, the legislation passed, who gets appointed and who gets approved - there are stark differences -

Nadar said there was no difference between the parties in 2000 and he now had finally admitted that there are huge differences between what Gore presidency would have been like versus the Bush administration -
right now we need to change party control of Congress to put the check and balance in place

and everyone's vote make a difference - please vote everyone