[Jim R]

President Bush has formally announced that “Stay the Course” is no longer the standard we adhere to for our policy in Iraq. That could be a good thing, but he also said that “Stay the Course” never was our plan in Iraq.

As a spiritual person who values truthfulness and straight forward honesty, this bothers me. How can people of faith who hold values of honesty and truthfullness continue to support this man and the party he represents? This is the man who told us that the federal government doesn’t tap the phones of Americans, that this action requires a warrant, while the federal government was tapping phones without a warrant This is the Administration that sent Colin Powell to the U.N. with that fantastic story of mobile labs and weapons of mass destructions, that we all now know was a lie and they knew it was a lie when it was told.

“The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful” Proverbs 12:22. Can we delight in the man and the party that is running this country? It is time for change.

I am calling on all peoples who hold spiritual values of any kind to consider the record of lies, hypocrisy, and spin the administration has put us through the last several years. The list of criminals and con men is never ending, Congressmen Delay, Cunningham, and Ney, hustler and con man Jack Abramoff, and The Enron people, who through the 2000 campaign were Bush’s biggest contributors and helped write our secretive energy policy with V.P. Cheney .Now we have the cover up of a child predator? Who are these people?

People of faith have to go way past the idea that every con man who thumps the Bible and say he is a Christian and pro-life is a friend. Examine how candidates stand on issues. There is a consistent theme of peace , justice, love, and tolerance in all major religions. Do the candidates you support exemplify these values or are they pontificating hypocrites, who just want your vote? What are they promising to do for the poor, healthcare, education, the environment, and peace issues? These are spiritual issues that people of faith need to consider on November 7th.

Yours in Peace

Jim Ramelis

WWJT? (Who would Jesus Torture?)

[rivanna]

Jim,

I can't imagine there is anyone on this board who doesn't agree with you. We've been hostages to the Texas oil tycoon far too long. Let's hope the elections will give the Democrats more leverage.

[flowperson]

Jim and Rivanna:

I fully agree with you both...but what happens if, in the upcoming election, the people that you and most of the rest of us dislike prevail and the current administration goes into its last two years STILL in control of both houses of congress? If you have been listening to the recent debates and revelations about electronic voting machines and what professors of computer science have been saying about the possibility of software manipulation and hacking despoiling true election results...what would you propose to do ? Fully one third of the nation votes electronically now. That's up from only about 10% in the last major national elections.

It all may come to that IMHO. Do we man the barricades and burn tires in the streets ? If the public wants, needs, and demands change, what happens if it does not materialize and computer shenanigans snatch defeat from the jaws of "victory" (there's a word we hear too much of from the White House these days).

I believe that we should be prepared for anything and everything to happen in these next two election cycles. Will money and power prevail in distorting the will of the people...or will the true will of the people prevail in the end and bring significant change...which of course is the one thing a democratic society is supposed to bring about over time as opposed to the stagnation implimented by narrow minds (what we're experiencing these days IMO).

What do you think of all this ? What would you be prepared to do about it ?

Do you think it even to be possible ?

Unfortunately, I believe that I do.

flow....

This post has been edited by flowperson: 26 October 2006 - 03:24 PM

[JosephM]

At the risk of sounding apathetic, I would like to share some thoughts.

Perhaps there is nothing wrong with George W Bush. Whether I agree with his policy or not is irrelevent. It seems to me that God neither detests nor delights in Bush's words. Nothing is out of control nor is the world situation in need of correction. If any correction is seen as required it is the mind of the one thinking so. How can it be any different? Nothing can really happen outside the presence of God and if it should appear so then it is but illusion and not to be feared or hated. Perhaps Jesus's advice for spiritual seekers to seek first the kindom of heaven and Paul's advice to not entangle oneself in the cares of this world is still valid today. Just a different view concerning the topic for consideration. No more, no less.

Love in Christ,
JM

[des]

Joseph, there is one problem with this concept of detachment, imo. And that is that there are others
involved than oneself, including the future of the planet. It also seems to be quite opposite the way
Jesus interacted in the world. He was not uninvolved in "local politics" such as the money changers
at the temple or the woman who committed adultery or the poor. Jesus said many comments (not
so much the line verse gal) re: whoever feeds the hungry does so to me, etc. Wouldn't that also mean
whoever ends wars, cleans up the planet, etc does so "to me"??

OTOH, I'm not sure that there is a right politics or wrong one (ie I don't think in anyway that Democrats
have God's politics and Republicans don't-- or vice versa), but there would be involved solutions to
problems that would be active in the world.

--des

[JosephM]

des, on Oct 26 2006, 10:13 PM, said:

Joseph, there is one problem with this concept of detachment, imo. And that is that there are others
involved than oneself, including the future of the planet. It also seems to be quite opposite the way
Jesus interacted in the world. He was not uninvolved in "local politics" such as the money changers
at the temple or the woman who committed adultery or the poor. Jesus said many comments (not
so much the line verse gal) re: whoever feeds the hungry does so to me, etc. Wouldn't that also mean
whoever ends wars, cleans up the planet, etc does so "to me"??

OTOH, I'm not sure that there is a right politics or wrong one (ie I don't think in anyway that Democrats
have God's politics and Republicans don't-- or vice versa), but there would be involved solutions to
problems that would be active in the world.

--des

Hi des,

Thanks for your response. Yes, it is a detachment yet it seems to me there is no problem. Yes, there in a sense are 'others' from a world perspective. And you are 'in the world' but you are not 'of the world'. The world is in no danger and you definitely are not. When you feed the hungry, you are feeding yourself. When you love your brother, you are loving yourself and when you are loving yourself you are loving God. Jesus said the poor will always be with you and likewise I say wars will always be with you as long as you are 'in the world'. But you, des, are not 'of the world' so love not the world nor the things that are in the world or the love of God will not be found in you. This is a deep saying so I will quote again as it is recorded in 1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

When you find the kingdom of heaven which is with you now, the world you 'know' disappears. It becomes the end of the world for you. Why then bother oneself with wars and politics. There are already those whose purpose is to fulfil those things and they are in no need of correction from you or I. You were called and chosen to enter the kingdom at this time. That is your purpose here. Your warfare is spiritual and not carnal in nature and no man that wars entangles himself in the cares of this world.
2 Tim. 2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Sure it is good to feed the poor, and visit those with infirmaties etc etc and to do what seems good in your eyes and when they are before you there is no need to leave them undone. But to take up causes of this world, I speak by revelation, is not your purpose here if I may be so bold to say. In truth there are no causes in this world, only effects. Howbeit all that which is seen is manifested 'in the world' is from the unseen which is not 'of this world'. You are not 'of this world'.

Perhaps it is hard to swallow but there is not one speck of dust out of place here on earth, every hair on your head is numbered and creation is unfolding in perfect harmony with God's justice and will. The planet isn't in need of cleanup. It is right where it needs to be at this moment we call time. Things are not what they appear to be. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. It is good to remember which is eternal and which will return to dust and then identify with your true nature. Then you will see no conflicts exist but only the divine dance of creation's perfection.

We were instructed to work on the beam in our own eye so that we might see clearly to remove that from our brothers. Herein lies God's wisdom. Be ye therefor perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Must be possible even now or Jesus lied. NOT!) Find that in you which is perfect and your burden will be light and heaven and eternal peace will be yours here on earth now.

Just some thoughts to consider concerning your response. Best Wishes.

Love in Christ,
JM

This post has been edited by JosephM: 26 October 2006 - 11:09 PM

[rivanna]

Joseph,

Wish I could share your serene outlook, we could all use a dose of that these days! One quibble: I have read many times that Jesus' phrase "be perfect" is more accurately translated as "be whole."

We can't know God's perspective on current events, and I don't want to over-generalize, but IMHO Republicans are worse than Democrats when it comes to smear tactics and negative campaigning. They may call themselves Christians but seem to lose all sense of decency at election time.

I think it's a good idea to keep faith and politics separate as much as possible. The founding fathers certainly did. And now we're faced with our own mad King George. I hate to sound shrill, but I've experienced personal attacks both locally and on the internet for my views, and it makes me feel like we're living in a fear-based nation instead of the one my ancestors came to create.

[JosephM]

rivanna, on Oct 27 2006, 08:00 AM, said:

Joseph,

Wish I could share your serene outlook, we could all use a dose of that these days! One quibble: I have read many times that Jesus' phrase "be perfect" is more accurately translated as "be whole."

We can't know God's perspective on current events, and I don't want to over-generalize, but IMHO Republicans are worse than Democrats when it comes to smear tactics and negative campaigning. They may call themselves Christians but seem to lose all sense of decency at election time.

I think it's a good idea to keep faith and politics separate as much as possible. The founding fathers certainly did. And now we're faced with our own mad King George. I hate to sound shrill, but I've experienced personal attacks both locally and on the internet for my views, and it makes me feel like we're living in a fear-based nation instead of the one my ancestors came to create.

Dear Rivanna,

The word in Greek is 'teleios' which you will find is 'complete' but has been translated as 'perfect', 'of full age' and 'man' in various translations. Only God is 'complete' because there is no other beside him. When you are in Christ (his annointing spirit), you are One with him, you are also complete. There is no fear, no suffering, and no tears possible. There is only perfect peace beyond words. God is available in the present moment and one has only to realize or awaken to that which is.

If I may be so bold to declare: God doesn't have a perspective on current events. They are a natural play from his divine justice on the totality of all that is at any moment in time. As Jesus said in effect 'Evil is in the eye of the beholder'. In my view, only from the perpective of the carnal nature of man can one party be worse than another and then your reality will be no more real than the one who takes the opposite view. It matters not if the majority agree with you or not. The carnal mind is limited in its capability to make such distinctions because it itself is innocent but the programming by society, circumstances and by a myriad of other factors color its perception beyond knowing what is true and what is false for the most part. The kingdom of God is as Jesus said "not of this world" (He was not talking planet earth or any planet) There are only two worlds. The world of Spirit and the world of Flesh OR one could say the unmanifest and the manifest OR the unseen and the seen OR the formless and the form. Only one of them is 'in a sense' real. The other is as a dream. Guess which one is which. Is it not recorded, Ephes. 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
You, rivanna are eternal spirit and death has no power over you.

It seems to me that fear has been around in time for a long time. It is good not to reside in it. Do you really think our ancestors had a society here that was with less fear than ours today? Even after King George was removed from the scene, all was not well. Women had no rights, Indians were killed for land and furs. Blacks were brought as slaves and many treated poorly. We had a Civil war where brother killed brother. Corruption was no stranger at that time and harder to detect. Women and Children were abused without notice and the carnal nature of men was no less hazardous to the population. Even through my days in the 1960's many Blacks were treated substandard and worse than some treated their pets. But then again, I know nothing of such things but what I read and what my mind has colored from experiences and am subject to error of perception in this last response to your final paragraph above.

Just some thoughts for your consideration in response to your post.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Jim R]

Flowperson, Jospeh M, and Rivanna, thank you for your insightful comments.

Flowperson, I too wait with apprehension for November 7th. If there are huge problems all over the country, AGAIN, and they all miracously overwhelmingly favor the Republicans, then they have did it. They have did what the British, the Nazis and the Communists couldn't do, they have trashed American Democracy.The Republican Congress mandated these electronic voting machines and then have absolutely refused any verification process or paper trail. Some States have did it on their own, though. Two electronic voting companies control a huge percentage of this market, it is something like 75 or 85 %of the market. They are Diebold and "Electronic Voting Systems" or something close to that. They are both Republican friendly. Incidentally, it has in fact allready started. Virgina has a hot race going for the Senate. The "Webb" part of Jim Webb's name was cut off on the ballot, and the "Republican" part of George Allen's slot on the ballot was cut off. So voters will have the choice of "James "Jim" Deomcrat and George Allen, no party identification.

Joseph M, I suspect you are into a mystical path of Christianity or from some of your terminology, A Course in Miracles. I have did A Course In Miracles and consider it my estoteric or mystical path, while Progressive Chritianity is my exoteric path. I have seen this debate played out plenty of times in the mystical circles and even in the not so mystical. I do love love my brother as myself. In ACIM terms, my brother is myself, thus as I judge, so shall I be judged. That is why if I mistreat the least of society,I not only mistreat myself, I mistreat Jesus himself. No the Deomocrats are not God's party.(I hope we never have a "God's party in America) But I do see more Dems standing up for Social Security, for Health Care, for Peace, for social Justice and Equality issues, for tax structures that don't favor the rich but help those that need. There is nothing wrong with the Greens either. If i stand by and let my brother get tortured, my brother go hungry, seniors get neglected, murdered children called "collateral damage", and people go without healthcare in the richest nation in the world, then I don't love my brother very mush , do I? Jesus din't have his head in the clouds and wasn't some sort of aloof mystic. He was hands on, healing the sick, feeding the crowds, and preaching to the masses.The trick seems to be, to not be attached to this world, it is neither good nor bad, it is just the world, to be centered in God, but yet to go forth and put your faith into action. The Eastern religions say to do what is right but not be attached to the fruits of your action.

Rivanna I too think some seperation of Church and State is needed However, if one values peaceful settlemet of disputes because of one's spiritual convictions, then has has the right to support a candidate that supports peace. If one believes in universal health care, then one has the right to support universal healthcare in politics,. I know it is a thin line and it always has been.

[JosephM]

Jim R, on Oct 27 2006, 09:55 AM, said:

Flowperson, Jospeh M, and Rivanna, thank you for your insightful comments.

(snip)
Joseph M, I suspect you are into a mystical path of Christianity or from some of your terminology, A Course in Miracles. I have did A Course In Miracles and consider it my estoteric or mystical path, while Progressive Chritianity is my exoteric path. I have seen this debate played out plenty of times in the mystical circles and even in the not so mystical. I do love love my brother as myself. In ACIM terms, my brother is myself, thus as I judge, so shall I be judged. That is why if I mistreat the least of society,I not only mistreat myself, I mistreat Jesus himself. No the Deomocrats are not God's party.(I hope we never have a "God's party in America) But I do see more Dems standing up for Social Security, for Health Care, for Peace, for social Justice and Equality issues, for tax structures that don't favor the rich but help those that need. There is nothing wrong with the Greens either. If i stand by and let my brother get tortured, my brother go hungry, seniors get neglected, murdered children called "collateral damage", and people go without healthcare in the richest nation in the world, then I don't love my brother very mush , do I? Jesus din't have his head in the clouds and wasn't some sort of aloof mystic. He was hands on, healing the sick, feeding the crowds, and preaching to the masses.The trick seems to be, to not be attached to this world, it is neither good nor bad, it is just the world, to be centered in God, but yet to go forth and put your faith into action. The Eastern religions say to do what is right but not be attached to the fruits of your action.

(snip)

Greetings Jim,

I suppose i could be described with a label that way since we are limited by languaging. I am lucky to read 3 Books a year on the average. I just recently picked up the book 'A course in Miracles' and found it a very difficult read but astoundingly similiar to what has been revealed to me. It helps in that it gives language to many experiences I have had. Mostly, I like to stay away from them (books) as they have a tendency through reason to color ones perception and make one dependent on them. It seems to me from experience that all truth already is known and available to be realized as soon as obstacles or obscurations are removed (positions, opinions, belief systems, etc.). The 'journey' is more a deprogramming function since all wisdom and knowledge is hid in Christ. When the clouds are removed, we see the Sun was shining all the time.

Books can indeed help but their purpose should only be as a pointer to truth itself which goes beyond the conscious level of reasoning. Once one recognizes the teacher within, it seems to me that books should be replaced by the subjective experience of ones spiritual journey. There are in my view many detours and side paths that are enticing but only prolong realization. It is fine for those who desire to play out their dreams since it has been shown to me that all will eventually in time 'arrive' yet i am compelled to cut it short and return to my first state though i may live a long life here.

Your post is very insightful. We can do much to alleviate the sufering of others. We can do even much more if we first remove the error of our sight so we can be more effective instruments in these bodies. One word directly from God is more effective than all the words and works of men who hold the truth in error.

May the Word of God dwell in you richly and provide the power to accomplish that which is set before you as I know it will.

[Jim R]

Joseph M you are a very deep fellow. We are on the same page about books. Books, dogmas, creeds, rules, rituals, rites, all have their place but true spirituality is an EXPEREINCE. I like A Course in Miracles because it mapped out a road with detailed plan for me on how to have that experience. One can also have that experience on other paths, with other books (Bible included) and with other teachers (inner teacher and Holy Spirit Included). Joseph do you have an inner teacher or an outer teacher that has led you to the beliefs you have without the aid of many books? Respect and Love in Chris Jim R

[JosephM]

Jim R, on Oct 27 2006, 12:59 PM, said:

Joseph M you are a very deep fellow. We are on the same page about books. Books, dogmas, creeds, rules, rituals, rites, all have their place but true spirituality is an EXPEREINCE. I like A Course in Miracles because it mapped out a road with detailed plan for me on how to have that experience. One can also have that experience on other paths, with other books (Bible included) and with other teachers (inner teacher and Holy Spirit Included). Joseph do you have an inner teacher or an outer teacher that has led you to the beliefs you have without the aid of many books? Respect and Love in Chris Jim R

Hi Jim,
After having a 'good' life where all my desires basically materialized and were answered I yet found myself incomplete and unsatisfied within. In 1980 I had a new birth experience, and zelously finished a 4 year Bible course and became a Christian non-denominational minister. I witnessed with a passion and sought the Baptism of the Holy Ghost which I received as in Acts chapter 2 with miracles and signs following.

I spread the dogma and teachings of theology I was taught and left my first Love for the god of religion. After some time by the grace of God I met an uneducated man who spoke to me concerning some things of God I thought I knew better than he. I rejected him as uneducated and unschooled in God but inside I 'knew' somehow what he was telling me was correct and that all the answers were within me and available for the asking. I got rid of my theology books, prayed and fasted and torn down the building I built and went to the foundation and asked God to build the building block by block only this time let it be with his blocks and not the blocks of men. Little by little, revelation by revelation I came to know better the God who had always been with me and had revealed himself to me in 1980 even though I had drifted away to worship the God of religion.

After holding fast to direct revelation from the Faher I was finally rejected among the ranks of my fellow ministers as one who had turned away from the faith. But the grace of God continued to teach me by his spirit. No more would I allow man to recontextualize my experiences and rob that which was rightfully mine as a son of God. All knowledge learned was as 'dung' compared to one brief experience of God. When I reached an impass to progress further God would bring into my life someone or a book to get me past my block. Then one day while driving to TN I surrendered all my beliefs to God and experienced being beyond time or location and in his presence where no questions remained. As I drifted in and out of this 'state' while still driving I was able to bring communications back to my brain and communicate between the body that was driving and the real me that was in the presence of God. No words needed to be spoken on the spirit side but answers appeared as if spoken on the flesh side with an instant knowing. Then I knew that the only thing that separates the spirit from the flesh is one of identification. As one removes the barriers that re-enforce this separation truth reveals itself effortlessly.

And so to answer your question after telling my life story my teacher is both within (inner) and without (outer). Whether the words come from your mouth because I am having conflict on my side or direct they are one and the same because there is only One and he is the same in you as in me. In reality I find the teacher is without location and can be best described as both everywhere and nowhere A true connundrum to the flesh but not to the spirit.

This is more words than I had planned to write but perhaps it will be inspiring in someway to another. May God bless you with peace beyond measure.

[des]

Joseph, with all respect, a bunch of Bible quotes isn't too meaningful to me, as I could probably
pull out (if I were so inclined, which I am not) an equal no. of quotes advising engagement.
For sure, we seek the kingdom of Heaven within, but without, I can't go along and pretend
global warming and Iraq (for two) aren't going on. And that we have nothing to do with them.

--des

[Jim R]

Jospeh, the story of your spiritual evolution was interesting. Thanks for sharing.Jim R

[JosephM]

des, on Oct 28 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

Joseph, with all respect, a bunch of Bible quotes isn't too meaningful to me, as I could probably
pull out (if I were so inclined, which I am not) an equal no. of quotes advising engagement.
For sure, we seek the kingdom of Heaven within, but without, I can't go along and pretend
global warming and Iraq (for two) aren't going on. And that we have nothing to do with them.

--des

Good Morning des,

I understand des. Yes, Bible quotes can be taken out to say almost anything. By no means do they give authority even to my mind to the words I spoke. I merely used them so as not to put a stumbling block before them who might be reading and require such. If it is in your power, destiny and wisdom to do something about Iraq and global warming then by all means I would encourage you.

You use the word 'pretend' in your sentence because you believe this world is reality. I cannot prove to you differently. Only God can show you what is real and what is illusion or a dream. It is difficult to see reality when everything you see and feel says you are a separate individual with a body and mind. The spiritual walk enters the realm of the unknown for the mind but the territory is familiar to the spirit. May you be blessed of God and fulfil your purpose and see your dreams come true.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Russ]

I think it helpful to look back at the reason for the stranglehold that the Demuplican and Republicrat parties have on politics in this country. I agree with what Malcolm X once said: Politics is supposed to get you something. And I agree with Karl Marx's view that politics is economics. Stop and think: Why is it that candidates from these two wings of the Ruling Party knock themselves out and rant against one another? Just what is so important for them in winning an election? Is it an overwhelming desire to do good things for people? Are these candidates champions of the issues that face everyday people like you and me? Or could it be the lifestyle of black tie parties, the prestige of being a senator or congressperson, having a nice office with a staff, a salary with terrific benifits, and NOT having to, say, work on a loading dock or in a cubicle? Are these people saying anything in order to get elected and then do what they want to in order to get their REAL constituents plugged into our money, awarded lucrative contracts, have unfavorable legislation voted down and favorable legislation passed? Who do these people REALLY represent? And for those who think the so-called 'Democratic' party is anything to write home about, keep in mind that FDR was implored, BEGGED, to put an end to lynchings in the South...and did nothing. Keep in mind that the wonderful JFK, who captured the nation with his personality and charm, escalated the nation's involvement in Viet Nam to a full-scale war level. Keep in mind that any real social progress has had to be forced down the throats of elected officials ON ALL LEVELS be it for civil rights, anti-war, ERA, gay rights, etc. Why do our 'leaders' in DC have such a hard time figuring out how to end homelessness and poverty when there is no problem figuring out how to build hi-tech weapons? Why do our elected officials all make a heck of a lot more money than I do? The political parties and politicians that I would vote for don't even exist yet! As a person who has been in anti-war, anti-aparthied, and pro-women demonstrations, who is a combat Viet Nam veteran, a working person that just breaks even every month, and a person of faith, I have no illusions. I BOYCOTT the elections and call for all people to completely push passed the Demublican and Republicrat politicians and open a debate amongst ourselves, form our OWN political parties, and field our OWN candidates: an Afro-American party, a Latino party, a Women's party, a Gay and Lesbian party, an Undocumented Workers party, a Labor Union party...and base the House and Senate on proportional representation. A party with 40% of the vote gets 40% of the seats in the House and Senate. A party that gets 5% of the vote gets 5% of the seats, etc. I really have no time in my life for the Empire's establishment, status quo charade of 'democracy' and politics. Voting for candidates is not democracy. Voting for actions that affect you life is. When was the last time YOU voted for the federal budget? Or military spending? Some democracy! We have no direct say in where our own hard-earned money goes...and for good reason. The citizens of this country have no real political power! If you don't get to allocate the money, your not in power...simple! All we do is to vote for Approved Candidate A or B from Approved Party A or B, they get in office, and they then go about doing what they really intended to do all along: go to work for their real constituency...the big money contributors, the guys in the industry they used to work in, the corporation they used to work for, etc. Everything else is just an act of going through the motions. Enough...I've gone on too much already. Please, Friends...wake up and smell the historical tasks facing us as people of faith!

This post has been edited by Russ: 28 October 2006 - 10:42 AM

[flowperson]

Great rant Russ..but it's what alot of us have been saying in one way or another since the 60's. I voted for Perot, Perot, and Nader, but didn't vote for a protest candidate last time because there wasn't one anymore. Even Ralph had to sell out to the powers that be just to get his name on ballots in about half of the states last time.

Well, I agree that BIG change is needed...but how to start same ? The way things are now, if one protesteth too vocally and too much one is labeled an "extremeist" which is only one step from being a dreaded "terrorist". And with the draconian limits placed on our collective rights to protest in voice or in print, the tide has definitely turned already against any meaningful changes from the status quo of the "two party system that is really one party system" which has effectively separated the elite leadership people from the people themselves. Yes...government is of the people, by the people, and for the people...but which people?

As I stated on another site recently, I'm sure Honest Abe is spinning in his grave in Oak Ridge Cemetery in Springfield, Illinois at about...oh... 5,000 rpm as I write this. But that isn't going to bring about meaningful change anytime soon IMHO.

flow.... .

[des]

Perhaps I was using the word "pretend" a bit cynically (Cynism is something I got from my dad's side--
for real, he was a curmudgeon who would make Andy Rooney envious :-)).
I do not buy the concept of the physical word as an illusion though, as my statement perhaps mistakenly
implied. I find the actual physical universe the very best proof of the existence of God, which I won't go
into right now.

Thanks all for a very civil discussion/debate, that is also most interesting. I feel the civil discussions really
are the MOST interesting and thought provoking.

--des

[JosephM]

Greetings again des,

Agreed, civil discussions are always the best. Besides, we all work and reason with imperfect perceptions which when recognized tell us that truth 'in a sense' is more relative than absolute. What was true last year seemed like a good idea at the time but as our understanding grows we see that it was only true from a perspective of our level of consciousness at the time.

Russ,

Indeed that was some rant. Very well organized and logical. Forgive me though if I take it lightly. Some advice I once received said that it is good for the serious seeker to reside in nonattachment wich of course is not the same as detachment. He said nonattachment "is an attitude of withdrawl of emotional entanglement in worldly affairs that leads to serenity and peace of mind". "It is supported by refusing the emotional seduction of other people's upsets and problems". " It also involves a willingness to allow the world and its affairs to work out its own problems and destiny". "Reactive involvement and intervention in the world can be better left to people who have a different calling."

Personally, it seems to me to be good advice but each to his own. Nonattachment of couse is not the same as indifference or withdrawl which results in apathy. One must do what they can but leave the results up to God and the universe. We can only be responsible for effort. Obviously, it seems to me, at the present moment, the masses are not ready or willing to wake up to the task at hand but are yet willing to be a victim.

May Peace and Joy fill your being.

PS. I was a Vietnam Vet also and then like Flow voted for Perot and have pretty well consistanly voted for 3rd or 4th party candidates since. Unfortunately others feel that doing so is throwing away their vote so in a sense the majority seem to agree with the outcome by default. Therefore I will accept the outcome as destiny and do what I can without concern for the outcome which is beyond that which is given me.

This post has been edited by JosephM: 28 October 2006 - 09:36 PM

[Jim R]

Russ, We have an imperfect hisotry as do most countries. If one wants to look and examine closely the atrocities, lies, and evils never end. AS IS THE HISTORY OF MOST OF THE WORLD AND OTHER COUNTRIES. We are just shocked about it because we have been told all our lives about how "special" we are. We think that is pretty "out there" that the Nazis thought they were the master race. but we aren't all that diffferent.

The histories of the parties of the U. S. are a never ending evolutionary process too. I am 55 and a VietNam vet like you and Jospeh and can remember when George Wallace was a Democrat. Robert Byrd was in the Klu Kulx Klan. Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive Republican and wanted to regulate big business. ( I can't remember that though, I read it in history

The year is 2006. Congress has just passed the most revolutionary piece of legislation since 1776. Mark Foley is getting more air time though. It is now legal to pick us up in the middle of the night, hold us indefintely, not be told of the charges agaisnt us, tried in absence by a military court, sentenced without ever seeing ajudge, tortured, executed and/or deported. These are desperate times. It is literally the end of United States as we know it. The most effective propaganda machine in the history of the world has been assembled. The drunken and doped masses have never been so well controlled. I wait with hope and appregension for Nov 7. If there are widespread voting problems again and they all miracously favor the Republicans, it may be done. We are through as a democracy."Permanent Republican majority" won't just be a phrase used by Delay and Abramhoff, it will be reality. They will be a martyrs for their cause. We will truly be a "Great Babylon" , capital of the New World Order of sleaze, lies, greed, and war.

My adopted father was an eastern European immigrant who survived the horror of WWII. I can remember him looking over one shoulder to see if the Nazis were coming for him and looking over the other shoulder to see if the Communists were after him. He never knew when the "knock at the door" was going to be and he could dragged away from his family. I can remember learning in school how we weren't like that, we are a nation of laws where individual rights are respected. How good it was to be an American.

Like Flowperson and others, I didn't really like Bill Clinton. If I remember right I think I voted for Perot the first time and Nader in 96. We wanted universal health care and got NAFTA.

I know this isn't going to go over well, but the Democrats are our best hope. They do have a progressive wing. Russ Feingold, John Conyers, Dennis Kucinich , Carl Levin, John Edwards,Maxine Waters, John Dingell, Ted Kenedy, Ned Lamont, Howard Dean and others call themselves Democrats. I do see Dems standing up for Social Security, I do see more Dems for universal health care, I do see more Dems for peaceful solutions to the world problems, for more help to education and public schools, and more Dems that want to see Roe v Wade stand.

Given the current state of affairs and the huge propaganda mechanism we are dealing with, the Dems are our best hope.