Harry

At critical times in history, people are born with the ability to take the bits of knowledge gathered by others and draw conclusions that were not yet apparent. Some discover seemingly small bits of information which later turned out to be important pieces of this seemingly never ending puzzle. If he actually existed Jesus Christ was one of those men. During his short life, he gathered bits of knowledge passed on by others and drew some conclusions about life that were misunderstood by most men. Truth, is like a powerful drug and we all differ in how much we can handle in one dose. Some people can’t deal with truth and it doesn’t grow in them. Mythical “Jesus” with a high level of understanding and capacity to process truth made a giant leap in knowledge and passed it on by his example. Others wrote it down. The seeds of truth he scattered have been growing and have brought us very close to another plateau. At the exponential rate of growth in the collective knowledge, we will soon reach the next plateau. We will remain there until we will realize that without working in cooperation we cannot take the next step. The bits and pieces of collected information need to be assembled in order to move on to the next step.

There is really no way to understand an illogical thought process.

It has occurred to me that people hate most in others that which they hate most in themselves. Islam's teaching about homosexuality in this case, has everything to do with this crime. I don't believe in a personal god entity that pulls strings to make things happen.

I don't think it's necessary so I don't, I'm not passing judgment here just sharing my personal thoughts. As long as her clients are happy and give her money that's fine with me. She is honest with them and is not a con artist. It is what her clients think that is important.

I don't wait for a cruise.

I am a skeptic and I try my very best to use the power of reason. I have a step daughter who makes a good living as a psychic. She knows I don't think she can read minds, predict futures or channel messages from dead people. I still love her and don't call her mentally ill. I do think she is delusional.

What are spirits? You are kidding me of course

Ok here's the thing, who knows how many religions there are in the world. They all claim to know the truth. Ultimately they were almost all started by a "prophet" with an ideology and went from there. I could list many examples from history before Christianity and after. Here is one that is a good example of how people can be self-delusional. "Following an anonymous tip, police enter a mansion in Rancho Santa Fe, an exclusive suburb of San Diego, California, and discover 39 victims of a mass suicide. The deceased–21 women and 18 men of varying ages–were all found lying peaceably in matching dark clothes and Nike sneakers and had no noticeable signs of blood or trauma. It was later revealed that the men and women were members of the “Heaven’s Gate” religious cult, whose leaders preached that suicide would allow them to leave their bodily “containers” and enter an alien spacecraft hidden behind the Hale-Bopp comet." For additional information visit: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/heavens-gate-cult-members-found-dead I rest my case.

We must start with a definition of delusional. Having false or unrealistic beliefs. You can be delusional without being mentally ill. Then maturity is as important to define. We can be mentally mature, emotionally mature, physically mature or even spiritually mature. I think believing the literal truth of bible stories about talking snakes and bushes or ascending into heaven is unrealistic just as believing there is a castle in the clouds at the top of the beanstalk. I don't think mature people believe those things unless they delude themselves to do so.

WOW! Rodge, your comment is really well put. Thank you!

Far from it, if that were true I would be admitting that for most of my life I was mentally ill. It's like picking your expert to me. You find someone you agree with and you sing the same song to each other to reinforce your belief. It's called a faith community, We all sing to each other and agree, we don't question because that isn't acceptable and we may be shunned. It's not a sickness, it's human. I've broken free from that choir and feel much better with my humanity. I started by removing the term "I believe" from my active vocabulary by replacing it with I think. This is how I learned to recognize facts and understand the difference between Rodge's objective and subjective truth. Facts are truth and truth can be verified. Children believe in the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and other myths and stories. They are not mentally ill, they are in the process of maturing. That's how I see it. Please don't be offended, I am not calling anyone a child here. We all mature at different rates and some of us never mature. I'm not mature yet either, I just think differently than I once did. I can also explain why.

I would put an even finer point it and include Jesus Christ in the realm of subjective truth. There is not one shred of physical evidence that I am aware of that he ever existed. I don't doubt that a man fitting the description lived during that time or even that he was killed by crucifixion. There is no reasonable or empirical evidence that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. All the laws of physics dealing with rockets show that a human could not achieve escape velocity on his own to leave earth's atmosphere. And where would heaven be then if not up? Why are there so many religions that profess such beliefs as facts. My answer is self-delusion.

Actually Rodge, we do agree, right down the line. That is what attracts me to your first opening statement. I am not arguing with you but I think I am confirming your opening statement. I do think subjective truth is belief. St. Anselm's definition is easily overturned.

Rodge, you opened this discussion with your definition of two types of truth, objective and subjective and stated in your closing: My thesis is that the church (including many progressives) fails to recognize the implications of the fact that there can be no objective truths regarding the existence and nature of God. Personal, subjective truths, yes. But no universal, objective truths. You can't prove anything about God, one way or the other, not that God exists, not that God doesn't exist. To me, this suggests that we should move away from being an authoritative Proclamation Church to being a welcoming Testimonial Church. Am I wrong? Can anyone cite a truth about the existence and nature of God that can be defined and confirmed by a skeptic? I understand your definitions but I submit that subjective truth isn't really a truth but a belief. A truth is a fact and there are two kinds of facts, a priori and a posteriori. We can have knowledge of facts when the facts can be verified by one of the two methods. A priori knowledge or justification is independent of experience, as with mathematics (3+2=5), tautologies ("All bachelors are unmarried"), and deduction from pure reason (e.g., ontological proofs).[3] A posteriori knowledge or justification is dependent on experience or empirical evidence, as with most aspects of science and personal knowledge. I don't believe the night will be ended by the morning sun, I know it. There is a big difference in knowing something or believing something. Knowing something is objective truth and believing something is a subjective truth. So with that in mind, subjective truth is not universal and cannot be verified either with reason or empirical facts or experience. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven until an agreement can be reached on a definition of God. Once that definition is agreed upon then the existence of a God can be proven or disproven logically. St. Anselm's ontological argument includes this definition: God is that which nothing can be imagined greater than. finding an objective truth using that definition is likely to lead to circular logic; like can god make a universe large enough to contain him, can he create a problem so complex that he can't solve it.

Objective truth, Science. Subjective truth, belief. I choose objective. It's better to know than to believe.