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  4. I did love not wrong but not profound either. For me, the 'development' of the human being or, better, to a truly human being, is an attraction and response to God (for simplicity sake), so the future. There is that which attracts but there must be a 'decision' to respond; there must be discernment and cooperation. However, it follows, with this admission, that the 'force' is not controlling.
  5. Not wrong, but not profound either. Think of development as an attraction to a future, irresistible teleos and events as mere souveniers and delusions of control. Trees may bend in the wind, but bending trees does not put up a breeze. The goal is to discern and cooperate with this controlling force.
  6. So a human being will not become an elephant but unlike that creature, his/her fundamental life is not 'predetermined?'
  7. Teleology is why a seed becomes a cypress tree and not a date palm. The environment can provide a minor, shaping influence but the fundamental life of the organism is predetermined.
  8. There are many kinds of dreams, and I think most would find keeping a dream journal enriching. I had lucid dreams frequently in the past and they were always marvelous experiences. I had two distinct dreams in my agnostic period; one of heaven and one of hell. Hell was peculiar. A large, desolated beachside picnic area with no other people but plenty of abandoned 60's style hibachi grills. I was always tripping over them or stepping on odd coals. Heaven was a huge park and formal garden where everyone was engaged in conversation.
  9. I have found that if one is truly interested in dreams and makes a conscious effort to explore that area one can have not only very explicit/lucid dreams but also consciously have an alarming control over them. There was a time in my journey where i would wake up and record my dreams multiple times each night in a journal by my bed. It was like living in another world where i knew people i had never seen here and had memory of multiple lives with shocking recollections and different laws whereby travel could be instant and gravity defeated. Rather than continue on that road which seemed never ending with explorations and astral travel, i put it aside. I actually got pretty good at dream interpretation and found direct correlations to waking life. A number of times actually seeing some future events in dreams that actually manifested within days of the dream that were personal and related events to me or relatives that were verifiable. Anyway enough of that. As far as i know, most everyone dreams multiple times each night. It seems to me, they are soon consciously forgotten unless one has a strong and persistent desire to remember.
  10. Joseph While I can't immediately put my finger on it, I think there are some major differences between my waking perception and dreams in general. But end of the day as I think you are suggesting both are products of past experience, chemistry and genetics etc. The largest difference I think is the immediacy of my waking perception ... it stretches back just a couple seconds, though it does draw on historical events from my local past and evolutionary past. Whereas dreams by and large draw on almost forgotten pasts if not forgotten ones. Dreams at least for me are of little sense to me. Tough to remember and generally rapidly gone. Dreams and waking perception are both of the universe unfolding. I can't help but be reminded of a tom Clancy quote" The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense. For me my waking perception (of reality) makes more sense than my dreams.
  11. Rom, It seems to me that our definition of the word illusion is the same or at the least very very similar (not what it seems). Yes using that word can be scary for many and comparing life here as a dream can also raise a few eyebrows. i think it even offends people but i am persuaded that it is logical especially at least for the word illusion when we examine the myriad of factors including the many you also mentioned that indeed color or form our perceptions.
  12. My understanding is that teleology when it pertains to theology (or religion) is concerned with the purpose and design of the world. Believe mine is therefore on record.
  13. For me losing the life quote, I interpret as understanding an intrinsic self is an illusion and moving on from there. What the ancient scribes meant by this, I don't know. And where did it come from and was it borrowed from some earlier Eastern tradition, again, I don't know.
  14. Well thormas I find it interesting that we as human beings confabulate a teleology for not just for ourselves, others, but also for animals, plants etc, sometimes for inanimate objects, the universe and an imaginary entity that is present to everything. If you find teleology fertile ground here go for it.
  15. Illusion ... calling some thing an illusion can be for some a scary or at least its outcome. So I think we need to practice a bit of rigour here and clarify what me mean by illusion. Otherwise we talk past one another. Of course our perceptions are not only coloured but actually formed by our experiences, chemistry, genetics etc. So our perception of reality is at best only a reflection of a small part of the universe or more accurately weighted to a small part of the universe. I suppose it could be argued some reflections are more accurate (more complete?) than others. Though it has been demonstrated some take on a post modernist flavour and claim we can't measure the accuracy not even relatively. I personally might not describe our waking perception as dream but I think our perception is limited and therefore reality cannot be as perceived with absolute accuracy ie, not what it seems. This sort points to Kant's noumenon and phenomenon. Phenomenon is but a refection of noumenon. But by using numerous kinds of phenomena we can build up a more accurate description of the noumenon assuming we have error checking in place. This is hopefully an ongoing process and we are never at the final description and needs to be viewed over centuries. Carl Sagan ... We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself. (I might argue about the word "know", but I think the general sentiment points in the right direction)'
  16. illusion: something is not as it seems, I accept there are other senses ... ie it can be synonymous with delusion.
  17. While exchanging comments with others interested in spiritual things, it has become most obvious to me that depending upon who one was talking to, a world appears that is unlike the one we may personally perceive. Our reality of the world is no doubt colored by our perceptions. One may see the world as a hostile place, another as a secure place, one as friendly, another as unworkable or miserable, another sees it as frightening, another as hopeful, another as tragic, another as demanding, another as meaningful and yet another as complete or perfect. These projections of perceptions seem to create a reality of the world that is ever changing as our perceptions change. One must therefore conclude one is not the witness of the ‘real’ world but rather one is actually the source of its 'seeming' reality. When we choose to strip the world of our perceptions, then the world appears as just an appearance. Its melodrama appears as an artifice of our distorted sense of perception. Shed of its descriptors the world of appearances is just seen as it is. Just like watching a movie, it appears as drama and entertainment. Suffering, sadness, and emotions seem to loose reality and a new world seems to emerge. It’s scary in a way because the world as exists through our perceptions seems like it will reject such a cold and indifferent view to its perceived reality. Friends expect reactions in-line with society norms that are in place at the time. But the truth is when all perceptions are stripped, even for a moment, the world one thought was the 'real world' stands up as nothing more than amusement or entertainment. Some have written to me that if this life is not real and is more like a dream then life is meaningless. Yet they may miss the point of all this if one thinks this life is Life. Don't forget there is the dreamer. The dreamer is real. Knowing all this from the perspective of this life as a character in the dream, yes, all does appear meaningless but it is not meaningless from the perspective of the dreamer who is Spirit. The dream is part of the evolution of consciousness seen in the concept of form and time. The dreamer has existence which is evidenced by the dream. It is the dream character that is fictional, temporary and the illusion and therefore in a sense not real. It is the character that is the mind and body which is ephemeral that is saying it is "I" the dreamer when it is not. That is the false which creates the drama of good and evil and all opposites when in reality opposites do not exist except to the fictional character. That may be why Jesus is recorded saying, "You have to lose your life to find Life. It seems to me all major religions at least hint to the same thing. Dying to self to reveal the eternal Self. It may sound like perfect Halloween fare to the character in the dream because through his conditioned thinking mind he is convinced that the character is real and this world is real. And from his perspective it is real. But you are not 'he' because 'he' will disappear and decay along with the world when the 5 senses are disconnected. Yet the dreamer remains as he always was and is, the eternal One Spirit. You may think that what I have said is just a theory but I tell you that when you find your real Self, the one that is eternal and is manifesting the dream, instead of the character in the dream, it seems to me you will know this for yourself. And yes, then this discussion will not matter anyway. It was just another chapter in consciousness being made aware of itself through form.
  18. Rom - I must admit for me this was way too short and if I may say so the garden was barren: could have used more flowers. So much for serious dialogue..................oh well.
  19. Rom, Early Sunday: will read a bit later. As for flowery - eye of the beholder.
  20. Thormas ... I must admit for me this was way too long and if I may say so flowery. To me this seems like rhetorical question about your beliefs. Choice about love? Absolutely none - at least free choice. Could it be otherwise? I don't see how. But generally I disagree with the premise preceding. See 3 Why do we exist? Teleology! What evidence do we have of a purpose or intent for our existence? More teleology ... not necessary in my opinion. What causes love? ... the properties of matter. The same that causes hate, lust, greed, fear, jealousy, etc .. you get the picture. Already answered. More teleology. More teleology More teleology It just might be a more accurate description of existence. Anyway my answers.
  21. August 20, 2017 Matthew 15:10-28 10-11 He then called the crowd together and said, “Listen, and take this to heart. It’s not what you swallow that pollutes your life, but what you vomit up.” 12 Later his disciples came and told him, “Did you know how upset the Pharisees were when they heard what you said?” 13-14 Jesus shrugged it off. “Every tree that wasn’t planted by my Father in heaven will be pulled up by its roots. Forget them. They are blind men leading blind men. When a blind man leads a blind man, they both end up in the ditch.” 15 Peter said, “I don’t get it. Put it in plain language.” 16-20 Jesus replied, “You, too? Are you being willfully stupid? Don’t you know that anything that is swallowed works its way through the intestines and is finally defecated? But what comes out of the mouth gets its start in the heart. It’s from the heart that we vomit up evil arguments, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, and cussing. That’s what pollutes. Eating or not eating certain foods, washing or not washing your hands—that’s neither here nor there.” Healing the People 21-22 From there Jesus took a trip to Tyre and Sidon. They had hardly arrived when a Canaanite woman came down from the hills and pleaded, “Mercy, Master, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly afflicted by an evil spirit.” 23 Jesus ignored her. The disciples came and complained, “Now she’s bothering us. Would you please take care of her? She’s driving us crazy.” 24 Jesus refused, telling them, “I’ve got my hands full dealing with the lost sheep of Israel.” 25 Then the woman came back to Jesus, went to her knees, and begged. “Master, help me.” 26 He said, “It’s not right to take bread out of children’s mouths and throw it to dogs.” 27 She was quick: “You’re right, Master, but beggar dogs do get scraps from the master’s table.” 28 Jesus gave in. “Oh, woman, your faith is something else. What you want is what you get!” Right then her daughter became well.
  22. No thanks Rom, I'm not the site summarizer-in-chief or even a deputy and they were discussion points. Yeah, you do want things only your way - so, right, fair enough. The discussion point are there and I would appreciate if you read what you suggested I include for ..........wait for it..............discussion :+}
  23. Actually I have mentioned to Joseph (in the past and before your time here) I am not a fan long posts. I prefer to have more of a discussion. So if you see it as snarkiness aimed at you fair enough. But I would appreciate it if you could summarize the points you want me to address.
  24. Sorry Rom, you suggested and I took the time to respond to that request. There for the reading, hardly a wall of text, appreciate the snakiness but still a dodge. Turn about is still fair play: don't start asking even more questions - respond or not!
  25. Rom, I agree they appear to be chaotic possibly because of lack of understanding at the present in an extremely complex universe but i believe it is not. I 'see' an unseen order in everything that someday even science may verify. I would not argue the point since i can offer no proof of my view. PS. I have read this "Considering the "Laws" and orderly forces within the Universe I would suggest Orderly over Chaotic, Even Quantum mechanics works within it's own laws. Nothing is truly Chaotic especialy anythinig adhering to cause and effect. "Reference
  26. Just following this thread from afar. Just happen to be reading a book on how poetry can transform and there was a quote from the journals of Gerard Manley Hopkins, where he was describing, amongst other things, the drift of snow, shaped by the wind, and then observes "chance left free to act falls into an order as well as purpose". Just seemed appropriate, but who knows? One little note from the book I added to my Notebook....."A work of art is not a piece of fruit lifted from a tree branch; it is a ripening collaboration of artist, receiver, and world." (Jane Hirshfield, "Ten Windows")
  27. If I want a wall of text I normally pick up a book. What is (or are) the questions you would like to be answered. One that comes to mind how we measure accuracy which I answered already. What were the others.
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